When a brother stumbles – reach out a hand.

[DocParticipant]

Thanks SES QUI no est and Macho – and all others who contributed to this thread.

Its an honour and a privilege to be able to help other brothers.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[surfdude12Participant 4103]

Doc wrote:

Yes there is such a thing as a man who uses pain to manipulate others, to get attention and to rationalise inaction.

Tell me – how do you know the difference between thise who seek to manipulate and those who arse simply crying out for help?

As I posted earlier, I tell the difference based on whether the man is receptive to suggestions (not trying to manipulate) as oppose to one who rejects all suggestions and merely continues to seek commiseration. How do you tell the difference? Because that didn’t come across in the OP and may be the entire reason for the misunderstanding expressed in the OP.

[DocParticipant]

You can’t say that a man who rejects all suggestions is trying to manipulate while a man who is open to suggestions isn’t trying to manipulate.

That’s you attaching your values and beliefs about what makes a man a manipulator.

A man who takes no suggestion may merely reject every suggestion because he cannot see things you suggest for himself.

That does not automatically make him manipulative.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[surfdude12Participant 4103]

Doc wrote:

You can’t say that a man who rejects all suggestions is trying to manipulate while a man who is open to suggestions isn’t trying to manipulate.

That’s you attaching your values and beliefs about what makes a man a manipulator.

A man who takes no suggestion may merely reject every suggestion because he cannot see things you suggest for himself.

That does not automatically make him manipulative.

Where did I say not taking suggestions “automatically” makes a man manipulative? I think that is you attaching your values and beliefs by reading in something to my post I did not say.

But back to my question: you’ve acknowledge a difference between the two, so how do you tell the difference? Or are you suggesting there is no way to tell?

[DocParticipant]

I’m suggesting that in most instances unless you are very familiar with the person you can’t tell the difference. When it comes to the way a person talks and behaves after an extremely painful event it’s wise to give that man the benefit of the doubt.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 54]

Doc wrote:

You can’t say that a man who rejects all suggestions is trying to manipulate while a man who is open to suggestions isn’t trying to manipulate.

That’s you attaching your values and beliefs about what makes a man a manipulator.

A man who takes no suggestion may merely reject every suggestion because he cannot see things you suggest for himself.

That does not automatically make him manipulative.

Doc wrote:

You can’t say that a man who rejects all suggestions is trying to manipulate while a man who is open to suggestions isn’t trying to manipulate.

That’s you attaching your values and beliefs about what makes a man a manipulator.

A man who takes no suggestion may merely reject every suggestion because he cannot see things you suggest for himself.

That does not automatically make him manipulative.

Point taken Doc.
Im afraid my giveing nature for depressed folks got used up in daeling with a depressed suicidel wife for so many years.
Theres just nothing left to give.
Not cold.just used up.

Good thing your here.

[DocParticipant]

There’s nothing wrong in that Old Sage. We can’t give to everyone. I respect you for your frankness.

I guess it’s as I said earlier in the thread. We don’t need to be there for those men who make plenty noise. Just don’t make them feel worse.
By not giving you are at least leaving them in as much peace they can find within.

I’m glad to be here Old Sage and kind words from men like you make it worth the while.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[surfdude12Participant 4103]

Doc wrote:

I’m suggesting that in most instances unless you are very familiar with the person you can’t tell the difference. When it comes to the way a person talks and behaves after an extremely painful event it’s wise to give that man the benefit of the doubt.

If you aren’t “very familiar with the person”, then you don’t know that he went through “an extremely painful event”

You can’t have it both ways.

[DocParticipant]

There are men here who we know have been through hell but we haven’t known long enough to be confident who can predict their behavior

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 54]

My best offerings come from the Heyoka in me at this point.

Buy the way..
Shes

Bi polar and DID.

Try living through that on a personal level….

[DocParticipant]

What is ‘DID’ Old Sage? I am not familiar with the acronym.

Or do you mean she DID try and off herself?

I am losing translation I think.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 54]

Disoiative Identity disorder.

Multiple personalitys.

[surfdude12Participant 4103]

Doc wrote:

There are men here who we know have been through hell but we haven’t known long enough to be confident who can predict their behavior

Now you’re arguing the exception to your general statement of “in most instances unless you are very familiar with the person, you can’t tell the difference…”

If your entire OP is only directed to people you personally know who are posting on here, then that makes sense. But your OP reads far more general than that. And went as far as to tell men who favor a “tougher” approach and thus don’t agree with your “compassion and empathy” approach to “move onto the next thread”.

I couldn’t disagree more. Telling someone what they need to hear, rather than what they want to hear is essential for many men experiencing pain, particularly pain derived from self-destructive behavior. I’m speaking from personal experience. They saved my life, because other men who were telling me what I wanted to hear didn’t realize I was killing myself.

[Anonymous 54]

Doc, for a time I had a girlfreind with this rare disorder.

So between my x and a girlfeind with it,

I had about 10 women to deal with.

Some liked me, but most didnt.

God Help Me….

[DocParticipant]

No – you are wrong. I am not saying anything of the sort. I am saying that on this forum we know enough about men that they have been through hell but not enough to predict their behavior. Even if you know someone very well you can still think you can predict their behavior and be wrong.

Whether you know a man personally or not – which to be telling him what he NEEDS to know you would have to feel you knew him enough – you are taking risks by telling him what you think he needs to know.

How do you know what another man NEEDS to hear?

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[DocParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

Doc, for a time I had a girlfreind with this rare disorder.

So between my x and a girlfeind with it,

I had about 10 women to deal with.

Some liked me, but most didnt.

God Help Me….

Ah I see Old Sage.

They are just mad. Nothing more to it. Perhaps a touch of evil too.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 54]

Doc wrote:

Old Sage wrote:

Doc, for a time I had a girlfreind with this rare disorder.

So between my x and a girlfeind with it,

I had about 10 women to deal with.

Some liked me, but most didnt.

God Help Me….

Ah I see Old Sage.

They are just mad. Nothing more to it. Perhaps a touch of evil too.

Oh theres evil in it.
The Evil personality protects the mild mannered weak personality.

I hope you get to treat someone with this disorder.
Its the big time.

An American football player, Hershal Magriff suffers from it.
I saw him on a tv interview.

I recognized what his wife went through.

Being around it will twist your brain inside out!!!!

[surfdude12Participant 4103]

Doc wrote:

No – you are wrong. I am not saying anything of the sort. I am saying that on this forum we know enough about men that they have been through hell but not enough to predict their behavior. Even if you know someone very well you can still think you can predict their behavior and be wrong.

Whether you know a man personally or not – which to be telling him what he NEEDS to know you would have to feel you knew him enough – you are taking risks by telling him what you think he needs to know.

How do you know what another man NEEDS to hear?

In that case, you’re suggesting this forum needs to shut down. Men on here have told me what I needed to hear countless times. In the relationship forum, when I was about to make gigantic mistakes in relationships, men told me what I needed to hear and smacked me upside the head, with lots of colorful language.

[Anonymous 54]

Doc wrote:

How do you know what another man NEEDS to hear?

Ask him?

[DocParticipant]

In this thread I am talking purely in the context of a potentially suicidal man and the consequences of getting wrong when we tell him what we think he needs to hear and thereby invalidate his feelings which may push him further into hoplessness and despair.

I’m not saying we should never tell a man what we think he needs to hear.
What I am saying is that we need to consider the consequence.

And it often needs to be a direct ‘snap the f~~~ out of it’ smack round the head. I am agreeing with thst.

But as I said – tread gently with the suicidal. If you can’t be 100% sure that what you say won’t drive that man closer to suicide just air on the side of caution. That’s all I’m saying.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Author]

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