When a brother stumbles – reach out a hand.

[DocParticipant]

Surf Dude
I can’t Format my replies like you so bear with me

1- Yes the man himself must find the path back from the self destructive behavior. We can show hi that road but it does not come from telling him his pain is not real and his intentions not valid.

2- no we are not advocating flirting with suicide. We are saying his THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS are valid. His behavior – suicide is problematic.

Break things down some more.

Wanting his life – we are again attaching our values to his thing. When you are well you value life. Why not – it’s going ok. But put yourself into the mind of the man who feels he has lost everything. His life has no value .

Yes there is such a thing as a man who uses pain to manipulate others, to get attention and to rationalise inaction.

Tell me – how do you know the difference between thise who seek to manipulate and those who arse simply crying out for help?

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 54]

Doc wrote:

Tell me – how do you know the difference between thise who seek to manipulate and those who arse simply crying out for help?

Here, by the flowerieness or dramatic style of writeing.
Instead of just saying it strait.

[DocParticipant]

surfdude12 wrote:

DocDJ wrote:

A man seeks comfort from pain. And that comfort may come from the self destructive behavior.

Until the pain from the self-destructive behavior is worse than the pain he seeks comfort from. Only then will he stop the self-destructive behavior and seek help.

Hence why allowing him to experience the pain of his own self-destructive behavior is key. E.g. if a family member gets locked up for DUI, don’t bail them out, let them feel 100% of the pain from that, which may be what they need to stop drinking etc.

Flirting with suicide through wreckless behavior brings about a sense of control which can bring peace. Hence a bringing back from self destruction. To tell a man he shouldn’t means he more likely will because you invalidate his pain.

Lovely, now we’ve just bolstered attempting suicide as a means of achieving peace.

Why should a man take responsibility for his life if he doesn’t even want his life?

Why should a man take responsibility for his life? Because it is the antidote to him wanting his life back.

The man does not have a victim mentality. From the outside looking in it may appear that way. To the sufferer they simply experience pain. To call them a person with a victim mentality invilaidtes their pain.

So there is no such thing as someone who uses pain as a means to manipulate others? as a means to get attention? as a means to rationalize inaction?[/Surf Dude
I can’t Format my replies like you so bear with me

1- Yes the man himself must find the path back from the self destructive behavior. We can show hi that road but it does not come from telling him his pain is not real and his intentions not valid.

2- no we are not advocating flirting with suicide. We are saying his THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS are valid. His behavior – suicide is problematic.

Break things down some more.

Wanting his life – we are again attaching our values to his thing. When you are well you value life. Why not – it’s going ok. But put yourself into the mind of the man who feels he has lost everything. His life has no value .

Yes there is such a thing as a man who uses pain to manipulate others, to get attention and to rationalise inaction.

Tell me – how do you know the difference between thise who seek to manipulate and those who arse simply crying out for help?

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[DocParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

DocDJ wrote:

Tell me – how do you know the difference between thise who seek to manipulate and those who arse simply crying out for help?

Here, by the flowerieness or dramatic style of writeing.
Instead of just saying it strait.

So shall I say it strait Old Sage?

My apologies if it’s flowery.

Some people want to kill themselves.
Some want you to think they will kill themselves.

Tell the difference.

Is that ok. 👍🙂

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 54]

Hahah, I didnt mean you sayin it stait Doc.

But yes, that was nice and direct!

I mean the ones that write something that soulnds like a novel are being creative.
Not a suicidel tendency.

[DocParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

Hahah, I didnt mean you sayin it stait Doc.

But yes, that was nice and direct!

I mean the ones that write something that soulnds like a novel are being creative.
Not a suicidel tendency.

It ok my friend. I knew you were cool but I had to bite. We go deeper than the odd misunderstanding. 👍👍👍

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 14]

Question for those of you that come off stronger than others. What would you do or how would you feel if one of the men you were hard on was no more to be come tomorrow?

I do not for one second agree with strong arming a man that is laying face down in the mud and helpless. Of course, strong, tough words can be encouragement, but this is a thin line when you do not know the person on the other end receiving this.

Much time was spent by me reading the stories of my fellow Brothers here, many before I even joined. I would not try to place myself in their shoes. The only thing that I am able to do is offer moral support and friendship of a Brother and this is why I am here.

I am no Saint, but some of the things that I have read recently I find disturbing.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Some men don’t have business taking a drink.

The trouble is that certain personalities are incapable of hitting a real bottom sufficient to cause a mental change. They consistently make soft landings, touch-and-go’s with catastrophe, instead of hitting the real reckoning point they absolutely need.

[DocParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

Question for those of you that come off stronger than others. What would you do or how would you feel if one of the men you were hard on was no more to be come tomorrow?

I do not for one second agree with strong arming a man that is laying face down in the mud and helpless. Of course, strong, tough words can be encouragement, but this is a thin line when you do not know the person on the other end receiving this.

Much time was spent by me reading the stories of my fellow Brothers here, many before I even joined. I would not try to place myself in their shoes. The only thing that I am able to do is offer moral support and friendship of a Brother and this is why I am here.

I am no Saint, but some of the things that I have read recently I find disturbing.

Quite so General. We are here for each other. No conditions.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Maraudrz1Participant 2250]

I am not as eloquent as some of you but if a man is in mental pain and thinking of harming himself we should all try to help him. Who knows, one of us may say the right thing to help that man back from the brink. Docdj can help on this but if someone is talking about their pain it means deep down they do want help. Usually.

I have found that if I have had similar experience that caused me pain I could usually reach the man having pain or if nothing else telling I have had bad experiences that caused me pain and understood his. If he asks I tell him what caused my pain and knew it may not be the same as his experience but the pain is usually the same. I have seen guys snap out of there pain and started looking at the future.

It is too bad that we don’t sometimes think like cats and dogs. There is no 5 minutes ago or 5 minutes into the future. Difficult to feel bad if you can’t remember one of your puppies or kittens die in a couple of days or you mate leaves you for whatever reason.

Women's brains and vagina have one thing in common. There is nothing in there until a man puts something in there.

[FrostByteParticipant 19005]

Doc wrote:

Tell me – how do you know the difference between those who seek to manipulate and those who are simply crying out for help?

Regardless those crying for help and those seeking to manipulate need to realize as well that when men sit in a circle and discuss how they feel, how they perceive the world, how they think the world perceives them and ask other men what they think. They will hear things that help. They will hear things that hurt. If they are being deceitful or playing a role they will get called out for it. They will be challenged to defend their words.
It is the nature of most men to be honest in their words and their feelings. This means expect the good, the bad and the ugly.

If you rescue a damsel in distress, all you will get is a distressed damsel.

[DocParticipant]

Gravel Pit wrote:

Some men don’t have business taking a drink. If you know you’re one of those, you best start finding a way to unf~~~ that.

Aint nothing wrong with telling someone, s~~~ or get off the pot. Either sober up, because the drink is causing you to be depressed and suicidal, or get busy drinking more, until you hit a bottom.

Anyone smoking dope or doing pills, same thing. You need to address it.

The trouble is that certain personalities are incapable of hitting a real bottom sufficient to cause a mental change. They consistently make soft landings, touch-and-go’s with catastrophe, instead of hitting the real reckoning point they absolutely need.

Separate out the following

What they they think
What they feel
What they do.

We can challenge all three. But be delicate even with the hardest man. Because you can’t always gauge their response. Or maybe their reaction. There is a difference.

A man is entitled to think and feel his pain but we say he ain’t valid in his actions? Come on.

Feel the man whose pain is so bad he can’t think straight and wants to die. Tell him

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Doc wrote:

Until the pain from the self-destructive behavior is worse than the pain he seeks comfort from. Only then will he stop the self-destructive behavior and seek help.

He “gets” it. Good one Doc.

I call that point the reckoning point. Its NOT like, oops I’m sorry I lost my job, got jailed for a month…etc…

Its like, I’m so afraid that I will actually die next time, or I’m so embarrassed that everyone saw me clinging to life on hospital bed… or I never want to be handcuffed to hospital bed while I’m literally too drugged up to leave the bed and I have to s~~~ and p~~~ all over myself and then the nurse comes and bleaches my whole body.

That kind of s~~~ will tur you sober in a hurry.

[Anonymous 12]

Doc wrote:

Exactly. So why tell him what he feels is bollocks?
Let him feel what he feels but let him recognise the value of his life.

what if a Man writes out the stats of his life, and comes to the conclusion his life is worthless, or has passed his gone-by date?

80+ years old
2 grown up kids
6 grandchildren
1 divorce
health declining
Thoroughly redpilled, but unable to go the path he wants to:
still paying Vagimony through his nose, and no end in sight because the bitch was much younger than him
cannot get over divorce because of divorce rape taking all the fun out of his life, ruining his morale now and for ever + empty pockets

So, in addition to being depressed he comes to the conclusion that the value of his life is Zero.
Or a negative value even because he constantly needs support and feels he is wasting other people´s Oxygen.

So if a life value is perceived Zero or even negative, is it okay to just let the guy suffer, circle the drain and jump off a bridge?

As an onlooker, there is not much one can do, I see no angle to convince him to stay with us and tell his story to warn others.
What does he care – his life is lived and his future is only getting worse.

[DocParticipant]

FrostByte wrote:

DocDJ wrote:

Tell me – how do you know the difference between those who seek to manipulate and those who are simply crying out for help?

Regardless those crying for help and those seeking to manipulate need to realize as well that when men sit in a circle and discuss how they feel, how they perceive the world, how they think the world perceives them and ask other men what they think. They will hear things that help. They will hear things that hurt. If they are being deceitful or playing a role they will get called out for it. They will be challenged to defend their words.
It is the nature of most men to be honest in their words and their feelings. This means expect the good, the bad and the ugly.

To be able to call a man out means to be confident on his motives. How can you be so sure

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[DocParticipant]

Gravel Pit wrote:

DocDJ wrote:

Until the pain from the self-destructive behavior is worse than the pain he seeks comfort from. Only then will he stop the self-destructive behavior and seek help.

He “gets” it. Good one Doc.

I call that point the reckoning point. Its NOT like, oops I’m sorry I lost my job, got jailed for a month…etc…

Its like, I’m so afraid that I will actually die next time, or I’m so embarrassed that everyone saw me clinging to life on hospital bed… or I never want to be handcuffed to hospital bed while I’m literally too drugged up to leave the bed and I have to s~~~ and p~~~ all over myself and then the nurse comes and bleaches my whole body.

That kind of s~~~ will tur you sober in a hurry.

Not always. It can take a man deeper.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[DocParticipant]

Maraudrz1 wrote:

I am not as eloquent as some of you but if a man is in mental pain and thinking of harming himself we should all try to help him. Who knows, one of us may say the right thing to help that man back from the brink. Docdj can help on this but if someone is talking about their pain it means deep down they do want help. Usually.

I have found that if I have had similar experience that caused me pain I could usually reach the man having pain or if nothing else telling I have had bad experiences that caused me pain and understood his. If he asks I tell him what caused my pain and knew it may not be the same as his experience but the pain is usually the same. I have seen guys snap out of there pain and started looking at the future.

It is too bad that we don’t sometimes think like cats and dogs. There is no 5 minutes ago or 5 minutes into the future. Difficult to feel bad if you can’t remember one of your puppies or kittens die in a couple of days or you mate leaves you for whatever reason.

Some men are looking for help but what they essentially asking is – am I ok feeling the way I do.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[FrostByteParticipant 19005]

Doc wrote:

FrostByte wrote:

DocDJ wrote:

Tell me – how do you know the difference between those who seek to manipulate and those who are simply crying out for help?

Regardless those crying for help and those seeking to manipulate need to realize as well that when men sit in a circle and discuss how they feel, how they perceive the world, how they think the world perceives them and ask other men what they think. They will hear things that help. They will hear things that hurt. If they are being deceitful or playing a role they will get called out for it. They will be challenged to defend their words.
It is the nature of most men to be honest in their words and their feelings. This means expect the good, the bad and the ugly.

To be able to call a man out means to be confident on his motives. How can you be so sure

You’re not sure that’s why you call out to learn their motives if they are suspicious to you.

If you rescue a damsel in distress, all you will get is a distressed damsel.

[DocParticipant]

Scratch that. It’s bs

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape, finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

[Anonymous 54]

Gravel Pit wrote:

Some men don’t have business taking a drink.

Like me!
I learned at an early age that greif/ depression and alcohhol dont mix.
Bad, bad, bad idea.

In a Cemetery, surrounded by Freinds writen in Stone.

Drunk.

Step one.

Sober up and face your loss.

[Author]

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