This topic contains 315 replies, has 39 voices, and was last updated by 
IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) 2 years ago.
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Anonymous5The real problem modern western societies have is our version of democracy.
It has, and will continue to be unduly influenced by financially influential lobbying corporations and minority groups that swing the balance of power.
This leads to governments being effectively bribed, and also governments buying votes from minorities.
Responsible government that stands up to corporations or curbs handouts to minority groups get kicked straight out.All we get to choose is the personality. This personality will then replace the previous cog in the same machinery.
True democracy is voting on issues, not just leaders.
In today’s technological society where even homeless people and pre-school children have phones, we should have far more referendums from our phones. People have an unprecedented access to information with the net that has no equal in history.
People should be involved on a whole range of issues rather than the one vote for a party every 3 or 5 years.While the western political system remains stagnant we’ll continue to have the financial looting we had in the past regardless of what monetary system we use or who we vote in.
It’s too easy for self interested groups to dissect the political process and unduly influence pivotal policy makers to trump the common good.Please please please be careful. We are in a public forum. I hope we can all agree that giving the authorities another reason to hate mgtow is a bad idea. Suggesting violence is a bad idea. Maybe I’m being paranoid but this out there anyone to find and read.
Easy, there. Of course you recognize this as sarcasm, right? Kill the masters? Of course I don’t even believe there ARE any masters. This is called an “ad absurdum” argument… a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance.
My point: if you truly believed that all of humanity is enslaved by evil bankers and rich people and there’s nothing you can do to stop it (except for ranting about it on online forums… oh, I’m sorry “education”) then your only real option would be to take up arms a-la the French Revolution. Clearly these people are not planning to build a guillotine so I suspect they either don’t really believe what they’re saying or they just like to feel they know something and be able to bitch about it without taking any meaningful action.
In my mind, it’s the same as the sort of people who believe there are alien lizards running the government. The idea is big enough to sound important, yet ludicrous enough for the “sheeple” to not take it seriously, therefore perfect for conspiracy nuts to rant about without having to show any proof or take any reparative actions.
Hey, if the tinfoil hat fits…
I wasn’t totally sure if it was sarcasm at first so I can imagine someone else reading it and misinterpreting then going nuts before they take a second to think about your comment. I’ve recently had a case of someone getting into trouble with social media at my university, so that has been on my mind. Sorry to distract the thread from the issue at hand. I just felt like throwing a word of caution. On that note, I’ll call it a day and get some work done offline. I’ll see you guys around.
Please stop I am about to burst my gut laughing, and I don’t even have a good buzz, yet
OMG!!!! I had a couple typos!!!!!!!
Meanwhile, all your points got destroyed. Funny how people always resort to nothing when they can’t come up with any any valid points other then OMG YOU ARE STUPID IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING I SAY…even though I’ve given plenty of examples why I disagree and you haven’t shot a single one of them down.
Funny how people always resort to nothing when they can’t come up with any any valid points other then OMG YOU ARE STUPID IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING I SAY…even though I’ve given plenty of examples why I disagree and you haven’t shot a single one of them down.
My point is you can’t spell, even when looking at a word at dictionary.com and with a spellchecker on this site(not once, but twice, mind you, after I already pointed it out). I’m pretty sure I’ve shot the f~~~ out of that. I am using the same tactics you use now. No point in trying to explain how money is created to you anymore, or how it is used to rob people of their wealth, and that it has been going on for thousands of years. That point has passed.
My point: if you truly believed that all of humanity is enslaved by evil bankers and rich people and there’s nothing you can do to stop it (except for ranting about it on online forums… oh, I’m sorry “education”) then your only real option would be to take up arms a-la the French Revolution. Clearly these people are not planning to build a guillotine so I suspect they either don’t really believe what they’re saying or they just like to feel they know something and be able to bitch about it without taking any meaningful action.
Bingo. They whine and cry about being a slave to the system, but at the same time I bet Veni has never worked a manual labor job. What a slave to the system…he’s got an easier life than past generations have had, and still hasn’t it better than people in most other countries do, and he considers himself a slave?
Meanwhile, there is no denying that if you think debt is slavery you can simply not borrow money from those big evil banks. Just carry out the logic a bit…loans are bad, and people making a profit off investing are bad…let’s just imagine a world without either of those. Just imagine something simple, like you want to start a landscaping business, but you don’t have any money to buy the equipment you need to get started, so what do you do? Well you can’t borrow money from the evil banks, so scratch that idea. You can’t find any financial backers willing to let you borrow some money now for a share of future profits in the future because that guy is exploiting you. What do you do? I suppose someone like Snake is going to say f~~~ yeah, someone should loan you money at 0%! Common sense time…if someone pitched a business proposal to me, and I wasn’t allowed to loan him money and get any interest, and I wasn’t allowed to buy in as a partial owner entitled to a share of the profits unless I’m also punching a clock…I’m going to tell that guy to go f~~~ himself. I’m not going to risk my money when I have no chance for any gain, but I run the risk that his business will fail and he won’t pay me back. In other words, if that guy really wants to start that business…his only option is to punch a clock for someone else(so they can exploit the fruits of his labor) until he saves enough money to buy all the equipment he needs to start his business.
A system without loans or investors would trap people far more than our current system. At least if I wanted to start a landscaping business, as long as I have a good credit history(which is understandable) and a solid business plan I can get a loan to start my own business, so I’m not working for someone else and being exploited by that evil man giving me a job…I mean making an unfair profit off my back. Or I could find a private financial backer to buy in with me and hammer out the terms of the deal until we come to agreeable terms. Yup, he’s going to make a profit off my labor, but his capital is giving me opportunity, so its a symbiotic relationship, not a master/slave relationship.
Yeah f~~~ the banks and f~~~ investors. Just because some people make bad decisions and get buried in debt or take risky investments and lose money, those things are evil! Let’s just ignore all the people who have turned student loans into lucrative careers, mortgages into paid off homes instead of being lifelong renters, or investments into retirement money so they don’t have to work until they drop dead…its easier to make bad decisions and blame it on the system rather than simply learning from your bad decisions and making better ones in the future.
My point is you can’t spell, even when looking at a word at dictionary.com and with a spellchecker on this site(not once, but twice, mind you, after I already pointed it out). I’m pretty sure I’ve shot the f~~~ out of that. I am using the same tactics you use now. No point in trying to explain how money is created to you anymore, or how it is used to rob people of their wealth, and that it has been going on for thousands of years. That point has passed.
You never explained anything to begin with. You posted a video that said:
Us government decides it needs money, it calls federal reserve and requests 10 billion dollars, federal reserve says sure we’ll buy 10 billion in bonds from you, government prints 10 billion worth of bonds and sends them to the fed, the fed prints 10 billion worth of federal reserve notes(aka dollars) and sends them to the government.
What is the federal reserve(the bank) doing? Its following the laws the government imposes upon it. Are you saying that is incorrect?
And we have been robbed of our wealth for thousands of years…LOL. My great grandmother came through Ellis Island with everything she owned in a single suitcase, was deaf in one ear because the treatment she received for an ear infection was to dump hot oil into her er, and she had to work a hell of a lot more than a 40 hour work week in a mill environment with safety standards that would have the place instantly shut down by today’s measures, and had less than a high school education. 100 years later I’m a property owner, I have a college education, access to modern medicine people back then couldn’t have even dreamed of, and if I work more than 40 hours a week in my safe working environment I get overtime pay for it rather than told if I don’t do it I’ll be replaced.
If some elite class or bankers have been trying to rob us of our wealth, they are doing a pretty crappy job. If you’ll excuse I have to get off my comfy chair in front of my computer in my heated home for a moment so I can answer an incoming call on my smart phone…its probably my buddy that wants me to drive across town and meet him at the local pub for a bite to eat and a couple beers…looks like I’m not going to be finishing the latest season of Walking Dead or playing any video games tonight. Man is it so terrible being a slave to the elite.
I admit it, Veni… the Creator has not allowed me access to the true power of consciousness, love, and thought because I have yet to learn how to be a responsible spiritual being by watching those Mark Passio videos you watched,
I’ll do that and get back to you right away… not.
– your friendly neighborhood Nazi :).
p.s. boots and guns may break my bones but ad hominem attacks will never hurt me.
That’s not the type of thinking behind what Mark Passio has to teach at all; he calls that “New Age Bulls~~~”. I don’t subscribe to religion, but the teachings of natural law apply to people who are rational, and even secular. I didn’t use Ad Hominem on you; you did on me. Comparing what you said to Nazi philosophies was not Ad Hominem, because what you said was almost word for word what George Bernard Shaw said, who was an advocate of Hitler and socialism. Don’t talk like a Nazi, won’t get compared to one. I can’t expect to constantly quote the bible without being compared to a Christian.
@beer Logical arguments based on reality and personal experience.
This is the world I live in as well, a world of wealth and opportunity where nearly anything is open to you if you’re willing to take the risks and pay the fees required. But just try to tell people that we live in a world that is more peaceful and abundant for more people than ever before and they will look at you like you are insane.
I truly feel sorry for people (I am assuming healthy, white, educated, middle-class, correct me if I am wrong) who believe they are struggling under the oppressive boot of economic tyranny in this country in this day and age.
And we have been robbed of our wealth for thousands of years…LOL
This topic…wtf
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. --Einstein
Of course people who have been handed an opportunity by the human gods, think life is great, because for them it is. They have been blessed. It’s not what you can do, it’s who you know, and that’s what it always has been. The quality of life for the slaves has improved, none the less we no longer decide anything for ourselves. Much of our decisions are made for us by financial constraints. It must be nice to have been provided with an opportunity by someone early in life. People who are spoiled apply a blanket across the land that says it’s a fair and just world, while people who are deprived of opportunities because they do not have the proper social network tell how it really is. Fortunate people live a fairy tale life. They don’t know what it’s like to be completely alone, with no mentor on the street. They don’t know what it’s like to have to wonder where their next meal is going to come from, and to have to take whatever job you can get because a single mother couldn’t afford to send you to college. To have to stay at a job where a boss cusses at you and deprives you of your dignity because without the job, you know you would be f~~~ed. People have no idea what it’s like to be *completely* alone. Comparing the opportunity that immigrants had here decades ago to modern day society is absurd, given the value of the dollar has plummeted 95%. Seriously, don’t talk about how f~~~ing great it is here because of how great it *was*, Foreigners have more opportunities and programs now than natural born citizens.. at the expense of natural born citizens. It isn’t the decision of the individual for someone else to provide him or her with an opportunity. It isn’t the decision of the individual for someone else to pay them money. If the bankers and government team weren’t wiping us out, we wouldn’t have such a huge national debt. If the average person is born with $50,000 of debt before they have done anything, then how in the hell can anyone say that this country isn’t being destroyed? The ruling class claims that the rest of us live above our means, but actually they live above *their* means at the expense of the rest of us. Debt is a weapon. The damage it did to Detroit is the equivalent of the destruction of war. Thomas Jefferson had this to say about it:
“And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”
If the socialists win, America will be transformed into a third world country. The transformation already began happening when we outsourced most of our jobs and manufacturing to China. They will move it’s destruction to the next stage with more taxes justified with “climate change”. Millions of dollars won’t mean anything during hyper inflation. The “human gods” will simply leave the country and get citizenship in another. You can wheelbarrow it around to buy yourself a loaf of bread like the Germans did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
“The standard of living for the average American has to decline. …I don’t think you can escape that.” –CFR member and former Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Paul Volcker.
people who rely on logical arguments based on reality and personal experience do not suggest to people that they should:
Kill the leaders, blow up the banks, hack and wipe the records, steal from the rich and give to the poor… I don’t care how you do it but for god’s sake stop whining and DO SOMETHING. Break your chains, kill the masters and burn down the plantation… or get used to being a slave and shut the f~~~ up…
You destroyed any illusion of rationality or credibility for yourself when you said this. In fact, even by government standards in the modern police state, you could probably be jailed for even saying this. Kids have gone to jail for Facebook posts that were less.
This topic…wtf
This thread… wtf
Phew, I missed all that? In one day? lol
Where do you draw the line? Millionaires aren’t the problem…do you have to have 10+ million to be a problem? Do you have to have 100+ million? Or how about those greedy billionaires…
You have to have the means to corrupt state policy. A million dollars in assorted assets isn’t going to buy you an invitation to the next Bilderburg event.
No, the monetary system having fiat currency is the prime culprit for disparity of rich and poor. Crony capitalism simply means people are getting government preferential treatment because of political/financial connections.
But having a guy ridiculously rich and doing nothing vs someone working forever on only a fragment is the result of fiat currency and fractional reserve banking.
But fiat currency and fractional reserve banking could only be instituted as a mandatory federal imposition with the aid of Keynes’ warped economic theology providing the ‘ethical’ pretext, Austrian school economics would never be so condescending, nor so hypocritical.
…Actually article 1 section 8 of the constitution grants the government the right to tax you…
As far as me not being a libertarian, that is just comical, as I’m a registered libertarian. Maybe you should learn a little about the modern libertarian party, here is an interesting summation of some of their beliefs if you are interested…
How can a ‘party’ presume ownership of an ideology? I think what you subscribed to was ‘Libertarian Partyism’ which is no less prone to ideological corruption than say, Nationalist Socialism…
Exactly…I don’t think our system is perfect, but its not impossible to get ahead in it either…
Notice how you felt compelled to use the term ‘get ahead’ in response to your charitable observation that the ‘system isn’t perfect’. Not only do you concede that ‘the system’ is flawed but that we, its subjects, are in constant competition with it. Why is that? Why is ‘the system’, purportedly manifested by ‘us’ to serve ‘us’, trying to confound us?
@ youthful ignorance comment
That is a useless accusation in an argument by itself. Older guys don’t agree on every topic so life experience doesn’t guarantee anyone they have the correct worldview.
And perhaps more importantly, it’s youthful idealism that keeps Society’s cynical excesses in check. Also, don’t confuse ignorance with innocence.
Clearly you don’t understand the role of the pimp. When a hooker is accepting too little pay for too much effort, who secures for her a higher paying tier of customers? When she gets arrested, who bails her out? When a John tries to rough her up or refuses to pay, who protects her and collects for the work she did? When she gets lazy and starts feeling like she’s too good to work for her upkeep anymore, who keeps her on track and makes sure she remains productive? When she wants to be special and important, who takes her out and shows her a night on the town?
The problem isn’t so much with his ‘role’, it’s the dynamics of their relationship. She has no choice whether or not to retain his services. If she feels that he is exploiting her, she should be able to ‘fire’ him and seek a better alternative.
I was considering the analogy of an apartment building the other day. If Continents are like blocks, Oceans and Seas like Streets and highways and National borders like plot boundaries, then social infrastructures must be like multi-occupancy buildings. The residents (note: not ‘tenants’) of those buildings should be able to employ a management company to oversee the routine administrative concerns of the building without unnecessarily inconveniencing the residents (their employer). So what are we doing when we vote in a general election? We’re not voting for a change of management company, we’re just voting for another team.
To extend the analogy, we’re bombarded by newsletters each day, courtesy of BigGov Management corp., reminding us of the innumerable and imminent threats to our safety and comfort and for which, conveniently, BigGov Corp. has a ready solution – but it’s going to cost us. Meanwhile, what of those residents who don’t believe that their claims are sincere? What about those residents who don’t want to pay the service charge any more? Simple, they’ll be evicted and thrown in the basement. It doesn’t matter if they grow their own food on the balcony, draw their energy from solar panels and their water from air condensers, they will still be forcefully evicted for not complying with their management agents’ demands. Just whom is employing whom?
Doc….he’s saying there is no other option in the system but to slave away. You say capitalism, communism, socialism, and individualism, as if they have any real meaning. It’s not right vs left, it’s RIGHT VS WRONG. You can try to justify slavery to me all day until your f~~~ing head explodes but at the end you will still be wrong and we will still be right.
<iframe src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/G2og5V4VC-A?feature=oembed” allowfullscreen=”” frameborder=”0″ height=”281″ width=”500″></iframe>
That was a great vid, cheers for the link 🙂
ME: Apparently, it’s you, because you believe that people should pay rent on things that they own in the form of land taxes, and you have been a statist from the get go, attempting to justify every single piece of legislation that creates the framework, the 10 planks of communism.
…
Psychopath capitalists even wish to force the common people to have to pay for water, while draining and selling water from public and municipal sources, like the CEO from Nestle. What happens when your profit system leads to a giant corporation hellbent on controlling 100% of the world’s food supply, but already now controls 75%? Is that communism? What’s a monopoly? Please think about this, Beer. Really take the time out to think.
Another great post Veni, you’re a true champion of individualism and rationality. Have you noticed how frequently your detractors resort to personal attacks? I could swear I’ve seen the odd feminist use similar tactics.
Oh man, you guys are killing me. So you’re just going to choose to pursue a world view in which you are perpetually enslaved with no possible recourse but to angrily and impotently rail against it?…
I’m a slave and there’s nothing I can do but be angry MY ASS. Break your chains, kill the masters and burn down the plantation… or get used to being a slave and shut the f~~~ up…
I have a philosophy that if there is no solution, there is no problem. What that means is that if you dislike something but have zero options for changing it, you’d better start looking for a way to start liking it or at least accept it…
As others have pointed out, ascertaining the nature of a problem is not an unproductive exercise, nor is violent, impulsive action, in any way productive. If more women engaged with men on the subject of sexual ‘equilibrium’ in the same, calm and measured fashion, perhaps places like MGTOW would be entirely unnecessary.
…If you were alone on an island totally free of any government and had to do just enough work to sustain yourself you’d be working a hell of a lot harder than what our system allows.
I disagree, your image of a subsistence life is obviously coloured by your complete unfamiliarity with it. A lot of pampered city dwellers are like that, not that I would ever presume to lump you in with that particular subspecies.
See this is why you don’t make any sense. What you are saying is we have a right to the fruits of our labor…but if the fruits of our labor put us in a position where we can afford to not work, that is somehow a problem. If the fruit of my labor is me building a chair and selling it, thats ok and I should keep all the profits, or if I hire 5 carpenters at 25 dollars an hour to help me build chairs and my profits increase that year I’m exploiting them? If I hire 9 carpenters 25 an hour and a manager at 30 an hour and stop showing up and just trust the manager to run the show for me since that’s what I’m paying him to do, and I trust the carpenters to do good work, since that’s what I’m paying them to do, suddenly I’m stealing the fruits of their labor? Would it make me a better person to instead shut the business down and let them all go find something else and hope they can make the same level of income, because at least I wouldn’t be exploiting anyone or stealing the fruits of anyone’s labor, right?…
…If you don’t think people should be allowed do invest their funds and potentially get a gain on their returns, what would you propose, some rules that make it so people aren’t allowed to do that? Who is going to enforce those rules, the government by chance? That is exactly what a statist is…
You STILL don’t get it do you. You can’t ‘magic’ energy or matter into existence, you can only convert one to the other. So an independent ‘entrepreneur’ decides to buy a factory as a potentially lucrative investment. It would cost $10,000,000. Where did he get this $10,000,000? Hell, he’s only 27! At an hourly wage of, say, $12, that would be the equivalent of 833,333 hours or 267 years of 6 day a week, 10 hour a day backbreaking menial work. Oh wait, he didn’t… he ‘invested’ wisely. In other words, he just managed to swindle himself about 261 years of someone else’s life – probably his Grandson’s.
3.Obsolete. interest paid for the use of money.
Do you prefer the obsolete and archaic definitions just because they support your beliefs?…
No, he probably prefers them because they were considered to be accurate definitions before they were corrupted by those who had a vested interest in obfuscating the significance of its elegant simplicity.
Lol…you challenge me to disappear off into the woods and live off the land for a year? No thanks…I’d rather just deal with currency, which is 1000x better than doing that or trying to barter for every exchange I make. The option exists, its just so ridiculously stupid what’s the point?
If your main point is just that you think its bulls~~~ you have to pay taxes, its like I already said, I’m not an anarchist so I don’t agree with you. I don’t think we need as much government or should have as high a tax rate as we currently have, but I recognize we need some government, and said government needs resources to keep civilization functioning. If you don’t want to pay any taxes feel from to move to some third world s~~~hole in Africa where you don’t have to pay taxes because there really isn’t a formal government, but some warlord might just take all your s~~~ for hahas and nobody will stop him, or feel free to move out in the desert in Syria in a disputed area where no government lords over you, but ISIS might just cut your head off for being American if they find you, or Assad’s guys might do something almost as bad if they find you.
The point is, you’d no longer be a hypocrite. I almost agree with your second paragraph but firstly, I don’t think it’s up to the banks or the government to mandate their own salary, as it were. They should draw up an estimate, submit it to the taxpayer for closer scrutiny, then allow the taxpayer to dictate their stipend. If they’re not up to task, they fold and the taxpayer tenders for a better public services management company.
In my mind, it’s the same as the sort of people who believe there are alien lizards running the government. The idea is big enough to sound important, yet ludicrous enough for the “sheeple” to not take it seriously, therefore perfect for conspiracy nuts to rant about without having to show any proof or take any reparative actions.
I don’t really understand why you joined MGTOW. Your pretence is one of rational orthodoxy and yet, here you are? On a site designed to act as a platform from which disillusioned men can declare their independence from both notional and physical constraints before engaging in discussions on what is ‘wrong’ with the world. Hell, how do you think women gained the enormous influence they have today? Do you think they appealed to our better natures? Or did they just exploit an already corrupt system?
This is the world I live in as well, a world of wealth and opportunity where nearly anything is open to you if you’re willing to take the risks and pay the fees required. But just try to tell people that we live in a world that is more peaceful and abundant for more people than ever before and they will look at you like you are insane.
I truly feel sorry for people (I am assuming healthy, white, educated, middle-class, correct me if I am wrong) who believe they are struggling under the oppressive boot of economic tyranny in this country in this day and age.
It’s like a scene from ‘Invasion of the body snatchers’. You really do believe the myth of ‘the American dream’ don’t you. You believe that, aside from a little healthy opportunism and amicable competition, it’s all good, wholesome fun. You believe that Keynesian economics, despite its cute, idiosyncratic flaws, is, at least, Capitalistic in nature, ergo, right! It’s seems to me that ignorance is practically a crime in your world and that ‘poor people’ aren’t just languid, they’re witless. I suppose you see social stratification as a sort of Darwinian inevitability – a necessary and natural culling exercise.
This topic…wtf
I suppose ideological differences are inevitable, even within solidarity movements.
“BigGov Corp. has a ready solution – but it’s going to cost us.” OUTSTANDING point, Bob. You probably already know, but for those who do not, this strategy is called the Hegelian Dialectic. http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm
1. Declare or manufacture a problem/crisis.
2. Control the narrative and reaction.
3. Provide the predetermined solution.
“I frankly think that crisis initiation is really tough.. and it’s very hard for me to see how the United States President can get us to war with Iran..which leads me to conclude that if, in fact, compromise is not coming, that the traditional way of “America gets to war”, is what would be best for US interests.” – Patrick Clawson, Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
VIDEO: https://youtu.be/PfoaLbbAix0
WEBSITE: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/experts/view/clawson-patrick“BigGov Corp. has a ready solution – but it’s going to cost us.” OUTSTANDING point, Bob. You probably already know, but for those who do not, this strategy is called the Hegelian Dialectic. http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm
That’s a great link Veni, I wasn’t familiar with ‘Hegelian dialectic’ but there is a terrible, cold logic about it. I’ve bookmarked crossroad.to – I can see I have a lot of reading to do! 😀
Oh and, on a lighter note, enjoy… 😛
heehee
Another shorter explaination of Hegelian dialectic:
http://theobserverwatches.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-hegelian-dialectic-in-action-two.html?m=1
Yes…government creates it’s illusion of legitimacy by solving problems that it creates. They poison you, and then sell you the antidote..
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