This topic contains 315 replies, has 39 voices, and was last updated by 
IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) 2 years ago.
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Beer. You are clueless in this. You said:
Beer wrote:
Inflation effects all dollars equally. It doesn’t effect the rich any less.
If I am a big corporation, and borrow 100 billion dollars from the bank, that the bank prints out of thin air and causes inflation, but I am able to buy 100 billion dollars worth of product at current prices before inflation has trickled down, I have, as a big corporation, taken your s~~~ and left you with the tab. It takes TIME for inflation to take effect. Critical f~~~ing time, moron.
Nah, I’m not clueless. If we have 3% inflation it effects all dollars the same. 100 dollars, 100 dollars in debt….100 billion dollars, 100 billion dollars in debt…its all effected by the same 3%. Its not like the government can say ok if you made less than 100k your inflation rate for the year is 8% but if you made 100,001+ your inflation rate is only 2%!
I’m not denying you can use leverage as a tool to build wealth if you are smart about it, but then again I never proposed the argument that debt was enslaving people, as debt only enslaves the foolish.
I do not “choose” to pursue a “world view”. Things are the way they are, and reality is oblivious to opinions. Having to pay interest on a car loan? That has not been my message. In fact, I can’t believe that after ALL of this you still don’t understand what I’ve had to say after explaining it so many times. A collaborative effort is required to abolish the 10 planks of communism from all legislation of all governments. Before that can happen, there must be a consensus and an understanding that no one is to be compelled by law into servitude. As for “f~~~ing some s~~~ up”, or “Kill the leaders, Blow up banks,”, etc. please do not insult our intellect. We know that the few of us who actually understand are outnumbered and out geared by the ignorant state religious zealots. I do not wish to kill ignorant but honorable and misguided people who are just attempting to acquire currency to provide for their families by enforcing unjust laws. Requiring a few individuals to provide a solution to the problem is an extremely unreasonable expectation from you Doc. Furthermore, I wouldn’t be surprised if the ruling class were intentionally fomenting another civil war just to depopulate their subjects and provide themselves an excuse for martial law and an even GREATER expansion of power. The battle is to be won with brains, not brawn, and that is one of the reason cryptocurrencies are being developed. Sorry, but your philosophy that “if there is no solution, there is no problem” is ridiculous. Just because you do not know the solution to a problem doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t state what it is in order to collaborate to solve it. Ignoring problems does not make them go away. Ayn Rand expressed this best when she said: “You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.”. The specter is not “unkillable”. If you think it is, you’d better check again with those open source developers. Fiat currencies have always collapsed, eventually. Fox news? I don’t even watch television. Even mentioning something like that is just a cheesy way to attempt to discredit the speaker by eluding to the assumption that they have a completely noncredible source. Sir, we have referenced several books and videos, and a variety of speakers. Ignorance is NOT bliss. If you actually want to help, then read the books. If you don’t want to help, then no one is forcing you to participate in this forum. You can leave any time you like. You’re not going to come in here and command the rest of us to stop caring, though.
Snake, it is refreshing to see someone else who has taken the time to evaluate the wisdom of Mark Passio. His explanations of natural law are the most brilliant that I have seen. In fact, before you even posted this, I posted his natural law seminar in the philosophy forums. You probably have seen it, but if you haven’t, I highly recommend it being that you appreciate his teachings as much as I.
I watched it all, and then I watched all of his one on feminism that I made a new thread on.
Oh man, you guys are killing me. So you’re just going to choose to pursue a world view in which you are perpetually enslaved with no possible recourse but to angrily and impotently rail against it? What the f~~~ good does that do? And for what… a few percentage points in taxes, having to pay interest on your car loan and some rich criminals you’ll never meet having nicer s~~~ than you?
Honestly… if you really believe you are endlaved you have a MORAL COMPUNCTION to do something about it, if you really believe the system to be as corrupt as you say it is, then strap on and go f~~~ some s~~~ up. Kill the leaders, blow up the banks, hack and wipe the records, steal from the rich and give to the poor… I don’t care how you do it but for god’s sake stop whining and DO SOMETHING.
I am doing something. I, and others, are educating our brethren, like you, because they are ignorant and live in darkness. We live for something greater. I don’t care if some guy has more than me, I care that he has more than me because he has enslaved me and the rest of my people. You show your ignorance yet again with recommendations to inflict violence. The way forward is with knowledge, not bloodshed.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Ephesians 6:12
You should. Inflation is primarily an expansion of the money supply (low interest rates/fractional reserve banking/fiat currency).
Woh…I never said I supported our current fiscal policies. I despise our current interest rates. I think ZIRP and QE are garbage, and eventually going to lead to many years of stagnation as a system that promotes so much debt via low rates is essentially stealing just borrowing tomorrows profits. I’d rather have seen a lot less government intervention during the financial melt down and at least the following recovery would have been organic and sustainable, and not the current bubble we are currently in.
All I’m saying is as long as you can make investments that will keep pace with or beat inflation over the long term, inflation isn’t going to kill you.
Doc….he’s saying there is no other option in the system but to slave away. You say capitalism, communism, socialism, and individualism, as if they have any real meaning. It’s not right vs left, it’s RIGHT VS WRONG. You can try to justify slavery to me all day until your f~~~ing head explodes but at the end you will still be wrong and we will still be right.
He’s wrong…THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS. You sir, need to go check out the Mr Money Mustache as well. Its full of people who are retiring early in their 30s and 40s. They aren’t trust fund babies…they are just average middle class people. A lot of them are just people who figure out how to live off 20k a year, and even with a 60k a year job can figure out how to become financially independent early on in life. When we have people who can figure out how to literally work 10-20 years of their life and retire…THATS NOT SLAVERY. If you were alone on an island totally free of any government and had to do just enough work to sustain yourself you’d be working a hell of a lot harder than what our system allows.
If some people can’t figure it out, and get buried in debt, and end up paying 1/3 of their life long earnings to banks and companies in the form of interest…its not the system failing, its people making s~~~ty choices. Don’t go to such an expensive college, don’t run out and buy a new car every 5 years, don’t buy a big fancy house, don’t buy a smart phone with a 120 dollar a month data package, don’t hit up starbucks every day, and for the love of god don’t ever get married/divorced. All these things add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a lifetime and the average person falls for most of, if not all of these traps. Those same hundreds of thousands of dollars could instead be added to your savings and fund your early retirement.
You should get the proper reward for doing your work, not “Here is your reward, now you have to do this in order to retain it’s relative value!”
So how do you propose we get rid of inflation/deflation? Go back to the gold standard? Do you realize…even with the gold standard we had inflation/deflation?
I’m not denying you can use leverage as a tool to build wealth if you are smart about it, but then again I never proposed the argument that debt was enslaving people, as debt only enslaves the foolish.
Did you not just listen to Zeitgeist explain that crony capitalism is nothing more than a game of musical chairs? It doesn’t matter how much you improve, or are good at it, someone loses and the bank profits. Not responding to your f~~~ing bulls~~~ anymore. People’s lives are not a game. You can quote all the success stories you want, and I can point to the poor, homeless, and incarcerated. Go read. Here I will give you something to read:
http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/050.usury.html
Debt usury is one of the vilest forms of slavery. Every one that had a creditor (nashak) joined themselves with David, I Samuel 22:1-2. The widow with the oil begged Elisha to help her pay her dead husband’s creditor lest her two sons be taken as bondmen, II Kings 4:1-7.
David prayed that the extortioner (usurer) would seize all that his wicked enemy had, Psalm 109:1-20. On the other hand, God said in a vision to David that his enemy would not exact (extract usury) upon him, Psalm 89:18-24.
Only enslaves the foolish…really? Sorry, that argument doesn’t work with me. I READ.
One way we can protect ourselves, as individuals, is something invented by Andrew Henderson called “flag theory”. Basically, instead of having all of your eggs in one basket, you go international. Multiple paths to citizenship in other countries; most of them require investment. He names several countries that are easy to get a passport in, and you can kind of just bounce around. His website is http://www.nomadcapitalist.com
BEER: “He’s wrong…THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS. ”
ME: It isn’t a matter of you and I in a competition to discover *who* is right or wrong. It’s you and I collaborating together to discover *what* is true or false. What I said is true, sir, and you are not my enemy. I am not your opponent. The option *not* to acquire currency, does not exist. This is the truth. If you don’t believe me, I challenge you to live without using money for a year without being confronted by law enforcement. It’s not possible. You will be, because of hunting licenses, fishing licenses, artificial costs to subsistence, agriculture laws, etc. A license is when a government steals your right to do something for yourself, and then sells it back to you.
I do not “choose” to pursue a “world view”. Things are the way they are, and reality is oblivious to opinions. Having to pay interest on a car loan? That has not been my message. In fact, I can’t believe that after ALL of this you still don’t understand what I’ve had to say after explaining it so many times.
Probably because you contradict yourself so much. You hate people making profits, yet don’t think anyone has the right to benefit from your labor or have any claim to what is yours.
What if you coded a cell phone program and posted it for sale for a dollar a download in the app store, and the first year 100,000 people buy it. You earned it, right? What about the next year, if that same program sold another 100,000 copies…but wait, the app store is hosting the download and that company has actively working employees, and you didn’t do anything but sit on your ass that year since your app was still making money and you’d rather be off playing golf, does the app store have a claim to your profits beyond whatever commission they agreed to host the download for because you weren’t still actively working on the program but it was still making money?
Before that can happen, there must be a consensus and an understanding that no one is to be compelled by law into servitude.
See this is why you don’t make any sense. What you are saying is we have a right to the fruits of our labor…but if the fruits of our labor put us in a position where we can afford to not work, that is somehow a problem. If the fruit of my labor is me building a chair and selling it, thats ok and I should keep all the profits, or if I hire 5 carpenters at 25 dollars an hour to help me build chairs and my profits increase that year I’m exploiting them? If I hire 9 carpenters 25 an hour and a manager at 30 an hour and stop showing up and just trust the manager to run the show for me since that’s what I’m paying him to do, and I trust the carpenters to do good work, since that’s what I’m paying them to do, suddenly I’m stealing the fruits of their labor? Would it make me a better person to instead shut the business down and let them all go find something else and hope they can make the same level of income, because at least I wouldn’t be exploiting anyone or stealing the fruits of anyone’s labor, right?
Yes you’ve explained it 10 times, but what you are saying is moronic.
We know that the few of us who actually understand are outnumbered and out geared by the ignorant state religious zealots.
So how would you explain it when all the limited government type folk also would disagree with you, because those same people also don’t see any problem with people being successful, making money, and doing whatever they want with said money. I think you have more in common with those ignorant statists than you think, because its those same big government statists who also demonize people for being successful and have a problem with people making profits.
If you don’t think people should be allowed do invest their funds and potentially get a gain on their returns, what would you propose, some rules that make it so people aren’t allowed to do that? Who is going to enforce those rules, the government by chance? That is exactly what a statist is…
I’m a slave and there’s nothing I can do but be angry MY ASSg. Break your chains, kill the masters and burn down the plantation…
Please please please be careful. We are in a public forum. I hope we can all agree that giving the authorities another reason to hate mgtow is a bad idea. Suggesting violence is a bad idea. Maybe I’m being paranoid but this out there anyone to find and read.
Did you not just listen to Zeitgeist explain that crony capitalism is nothing more than a game of musical chairs? It doesn’t matter how much you improve, or are good at it, someone loses and the bank profits.
Yeah…I watched it, did you?
GOVERNMENT orders fed to create money, GOVERNMENT prints bonds, FED “buys” bonds. You know who’s f~~~ing me…the government, the FED, aka the bank, only does what the GOVERNMENT designed it and gave it the power to do.
Why do you think I’m a limited government kind of guy…I recognize the government is f~~~ing us. Its not my local community bank, or even big bad bank of America f~~~ing me, they aren’t printing money, its the government doing the f~~~ing.
Not responding to your f~~~ing bulls~~~ anymore. People’s lives are not a game. You can quote all the success stories you want, and I can point to the poor, homeless, and incarcerated. Go read. Here I will give you something to read:
http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/050.usury.html
Debt usury is one of the vilest forms of slavery. Every one that had a creditor (nashak) joined themselves with David, I Samuel 22:1-2. The widow with the oil begged Elisha to help her pay her dead husband’s creditor lest her two sons be taken as bondmen, II Kings 4:1-7.
David prayed that the extortioner (usurer) would seize all that his wicked enemy had, Psalm 109:1-20. On the other hand, God said in a vision to David that his enemy would not exact (extract usury) upon him, Psalm 89:18-24.
Only enslaves the foolish…really? Sorry, that argument doesn’t work with me. I READ.
Do you even read what you post? You obviously don’t even know what ursury is. Here ya go, straight off dictionary . com for ya…
1.the lending or practice of lending money at an exorbitant interest.
2.an exorbitant amount or rate of interest, especially in excess of the legal rate.
3.Obsolete. interest paid for the use of money.Perhaps you would prefer the mirriam webster definition.
1archaic : interest
2: the lending of money with an interest charge for its use; especially : the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates
3: an unconscionable or exorbitant rate or amount of interest; specifically : interest in excess of a legal rate charged to a borrower for the use of moneyDo you prefer the obsolete and archaic definitions just because they support your beliefs? Sure we have loan sharks out there that will let you borrow money at ridiculous rates and break your knees if you don’t pay, but these aren’t the banks, and they probably represent about .000000000001% of the people who run into debt trouble.
Right out of the bible s~~~ you quoted, which I’m an atheist so I really don’t give a s~~~ about the bible either way, but it did give me a good chuckle…
“However, Deuteronomy 23:19-20 adds another dimension: “Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of anything that is lent upon usury. Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thy hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.””
Ahh the good book…telling me not to lend to thy brother at excessive rates, but feel free to f~~~ a stranger over lol.
No Beer, I haven’t contradicted myself and you have no proof that I did. For you to prove it, you’d have to take two different quotes from myself where I declare opposites, and you can’t. It isn’t my problem that you don’t understand, so I’m not going to explain myself to you, or respond. I will be speaking to the others though.
BEER: “What you are saying is we have a right to the fruits of our labor…but if the fruits of our labor put us in a position where we can afford to not work, that is somehow a problem”
ME: I’ve already asked you to stop attempting to express my opinion for me. If you’d like to address something I actually said, then quote me. This straw man fallacy is exhausting. I did not at all say this. You falsified this opinion in my stead, exactly as I have asked you not to. If you work, and save up money from that, it’s fine. You have a pile of coconuts that you harvested yourself. What isn’t fine is for someone else to earn your income for you while you do nothing. If you are against slavery, then I do not know why you cannot comprehend this simple message.
BEER: “So how would you explain it when all the limited government type folk also would disagree with you, because those same people also don’t see any problem with people being successful, making money, and doing whatever they want with said money”
ME: Who elected you to speak for *ALL the limited government type folk”? No one. Speak for yourself. Expressing the opinions of others is just hear say. Of course, you keep attempting to straw man and falsify my opinion for me as well, so this is not a shocker.
I’m through with you, BEER. You no longer deserve a response from me. I will respond to others, and we will continue this chat. Money for nothing is free lunch. Eventually the working class will get tired of carrying the rest of you, or simply be unable to when the fiat currency collapses from hyper inflation, after which hopefully you’ll have the survival skills to hunt, fish, or grow your own food. Your entire strategy for discussion is to discredit the speaker, discredit their sources of information, insult people, belittle people, or claim that they are of an opinion that they are not with straw man fallacy. You sir, are a waste of my time.
Yeah…I watched it, did you?
GOVERNMENT orders fed to create money, GOVERNMENT prints bonds, FED “buys” bonds. You know who’s f~~~ing me…the government, the FED, aka the bank, only does what the GOVERNMENT designed it and gave it the power to do.
Why do you think I’m a limited government kind of guy…I recognize the government is f~~~ing us. Its not my local community bank, or even big bad bank of America f~~~ing me, they aren’t printing money, its the government doing the f~~~ing.
You are totally f~~~ing clueless. You are a KNOW-NOTHING.
Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws. – Mayer Amschel Rothschild
Do you even read what you post? You obviously don’t even know what ursury is. Here ya go, straight off dictionary . com for ya…
You go to dictionary.com and still can’t spell USURY, I don’t think I need to listen to you anymore. I don’t want to be a grammar nazi, but in this case, I am left with little choice.
Right out of the bible s~~~ you quoted, which I’m an atheist so I really don’t give a s~~~ about the bible either way, but it did give me a good chuckle…
Who said I was or was not an atheist, or christian? You don’t know what I believe in. You only know what I tell you. Didn’t I say I was done responding to your stupid bulls~~~, yet I just responded to you again? I lied.
The option *not* to acquire currency, does not exist. This is the truth. If you don’t believe me, I challenge you to live without using money for a year without being confronted by law enforcement. It’s not possible. You will be, because of hunting licenses, fishing licenses, artificial costs to subsistence, agriculture laws, etc. A license is when a government steals your right to do something for yourself, and then sells it back to you.
Lol…you challenge me to disappear off into the woods and live off the land for a year? No thanks…I’d rather just deal with currency, which is 1000x better than doing that or trying to barter for every exchange I make. The option exists, its just so ridiculously stupid what’s the point?
If your main point is just that you think its bulls~~~ you have to pay taxes, its like I already said, I’m not an anarchist so I don’t agree with you. I don’t think we need as much government or should have as high a tax rate as we currently have, but I recognize we need some government, and said government needs resources to keep civilization functioning. If you don’t want to pay any taxes feel from to move to some third world s~~~hole in Africa where you don’t have to pay taxes because there really isn’t a formal government, but some warlord might just take all your s~~~ for hahas and nobody will stop him, or feel free to move out in the desert in Syria in a disputed area where no government lords over you, but ISIS might just cut your head off for being American if they find you, or Assad’s guys might do something almost as bad if they find you.
You are totally f~~~ing clueless. You are a KNOW-NOTHING.
LOL I paraphrased exactly what the video said within the first 2 minutes.
You didn’t read what I linked you. You are a total waste of time like I said.
Nehemiah was angry when he heard about this. He said “ye exact usury, every one of his brother” Nehemiah 5:7. Calling an assembly to stop this practice, Nehemiah demanded the restoration of foreclosed property, the 1% interest on money charged, along with the produce counted as interest. To do these things to the brethren is a great sin! There should be no increase required.
Even 1% is USURY and is EVIL and DEBT SLAVERY.
I read what you posted, did you read anything except for a select few portions of it? Here’s another quote out of it.
There are some who say that God only condemns excessive interest. Until recently, laws of several states forbid interest rates above 12%. Anyone who charged more was guilty of “usury.”The same article gives many viewpoints. Its pretty retarded to post an article that does that and only act like the one narrow portion of it you want to believe is absolute truth. Ultimately what are you trying to say, any interest is evil? What’s the alternative, it just becomes impossible for anyone to borrow money for anything unless you have a rich family member willing to loan you at 0%?
Teeeheeehee!!! I’m a clueless no nothing. Tell that to the millions of people who were able to buy houses because of loans, when the alternative was to rent for life because they’d never be able to save up enough to buy a house in cash while paying rent. Or tell that to the millions of people who could buy a car because of a loan, when the alternative would have been to spend a few months walking everywhere while they saved. Or tell that to the millions of people who got a degree and a good job because they were able to borrow for college…
Of course if you want to focus on the idiots who borrowed twice what they could afford to buy a mcmansion, someone who has to buy a new car every time they pay off their previous, or someone who got buried for 100k in student loans for an underwater basket weaving degree with s~~~ty income potential and job prospects, debt seems horrible…but at the end of the day its just a tool. Its improved life for some people while other people hurt themselves with it…just like you can build a house with a hammer or you can smash your thumb with it.
Bottom line is rather than use a modern definition of ursury you want to try to define it by a select few passages of biblical reference that most of society could give two s~~~s less about, and act like everyone who doesn’t agree with you is an idiot.
I admit it, Veni… the Creator has not allowed me access to the true power of consciousness, love, and thought because I have yet to learn how to be a responsible spiritual being by watching those Mark Passio videos you watched,
I’ll do that and get back to you right away… not.
– your friendly neighborhood Nazi :).
p.s. boots and guns may break my bones but ad hominem attacks will never hurt me.
@ Beer
Sorry, but I missed your question from earlier so I will respond now. As I mentioned, I am not arguing for any solutions at this point. I am here to point out what I think the problem is. As we discussed earlier, I have a personal solution of minimalism, with the intent of minimizing my need for cash. I feel it is my time to leave the thread though. We have had a post mentioning the use of violence and I don’t want to be involved with the thread anymore. That takes it past being civil and I want to keep this website safe. How about we all call it quits and agree to disagree.
Teeeheeehee!!! I’m a clueless no nothing.
You said it.
Bottom line is rather than use a modern definition of ursury
Oops, you did it again.
Please stop I am about to burst my gut laughing, and I don’t even have a good buzz, yet
Please please please be careful. We are in a public forum. I hope we can all agree that giving the authorities another reason to hate mgtow is a bad idea. Suggesting violence is a bad idea. Maybe I’m being paranoid but this out there anyone to find and read.
Easy, there. Of course you recognize this as sarcasm, right? Kill the masters? Of course I don’t even believe there ARE any masters. This is called an “ad absurdum” argument… a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance.
My point: if you truly believed that all of humanity is enslaved by evil bankers and rich people and there’s nothing you can do to stop it (except for ranting about it on online forums… oh, I’m sorry “education”) then your only real option would be to take up arms a-la the French Revolution. Clearly these people are not planning to build a guillotine so I suspect they either don’t really believe what they’re saying or they just like to feel they know something and be able to bitch about it without taking any meaningful action.
In my mind, it’s the same as the sort of people who believe there are alien lizards running the government. The idea is big enough to sound important, yet ludicrous enough for the “sheeple” to not take it seriously, therefore perfect for conspiracy nuts to rant about without having to show any proof or take any reparative actions.
Hey, if the tinfoil hat fits…
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