This topic contains 315 replies, has 39 voices, and was last updated by 
IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) 1 year, 12 months ago.
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Again, well put, Beer. It seems to me that someone’s blind hatred of wealthy bankers is clouding their ability to separate the important and necessary, though still sometimes problematic, elements of economics from the criminal conspiracy stuff that they’ve clearly been listening to a lot of.
Once again I’ll ask… from where does this “down with fiat currency, the fed, interest, taxes and so forth…” Stuff come from? Is it Rush Limbaugh? Alex Jones? Fox News? I’d like to hear the argument strait from the horse’s mouth, not angrily regurgitated and conflated with notions of slavery, individualism and the like. Or is that all a part of it too?
@veniversum, What book/website/talk radio show did you say you were getting your ideas from, again? I’d like to see some credentials so we can tease out the underlying world view at play here.
In fairness, I’d say the broad strokes of my arguments stem from my experience reading _The Ascent of Man_ by Jacob Bronowsky, _Atlas Shrugged_ by Ayn Rand, _The Sovereign Individual_ by James Dale Davidson and Rees Mogg, _A Conflict of Visions_ by Thomas Sowell and any number of other works that seek to define human social and cultural behavior in economic terms, not limited to some less scholarly but still occasionally relevant works such as the Freakanomics books, the Four Hour Work Week, the Rich Dad/Poor Dad series, utopian and dystopian social and science fiction of early and middle century British and American writers, etc plus my own varied studies of cultural anthropology, biological determinism, cultural hegemony and imperialism in the early Industrial age, corporate law, the revolutionary and civil wars, marketing, manufacturing, resource extraction and production software development and cryptography, my personal experiences creating and exchanging valuable goods, investing in stocks and precious metals and my travels to factory towns in China and across the American South.
@ Beer
Oh, I don’t necessarily “hate” the system, it could be worst, but the pursuit of money beyond what I need to survive does not interest me. Like I said, the government/wealthy can manipulate their dollars however they want, so I don’t want to support that. I’ll minimize my need to use cash and find alternatives where I can. Your rental property idea is something I would consider and I have family that does something similar. With property, the value remains more consistent since more land can’t be printed out and what not. That said, then I have to worry about taxes and what not related to renting laws and then the legal nightmare involving bad tenants and who has the right to evict or, yeah.
Also, if I cared about politics, I would also label myself as being libertarian like. My views on that are similar to my views on individuality I mentioned earlier. But I guess that is better left for a future thread.
This is a very weird “debate.” I sense some ignorance on some people parts perhaps due to youth. That said I agree most with Doc and Beer…Yes the system is f~~~ed, but hey make the most of it because nobody else is gonna give a f~~~ about you.
Exactly…I don’t think our system is perfect, but its not impossible to get ahead in it either. I know people making 50k a year that will retire comfortably with a million + in liquid assets and a paid off residence, and I know people making 130k a year that live paycheck to paycheck. We have people that win a lottery jackpot for a few million that are smart with it and never work another day in their life, and we have people that win the same amount that are claiming bankruptcy 3 years later. You can’t change that, and I just plan on doing whatever I can to earn the maximum amount of money I can with the least amount of effort.
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got in life was from a guy I’m not even sure had a high school diploma that I worked with for a few years in a labor job. He told me “Work smarter, not harder.” Unfortunately for him he only applied that logic to moving boxes around a warehouse. As soon as you apply that logic to money you see the beauty of the system…the ultimate plan isn’t to work hard your whole life, its to work hard until you can accumulate a bit of wealth, and then its time to work smarter and do things so that wealth will earn you even more wealth.
It seems to me that someone’s blind hatred of wealthy bankers is clouding their ability to separate the important and necessary, though still sometimes problematic, elements of economics from the criminal conspiracy stuff that they’ve clearly been listening to a lot of.
He just strikes me as your average college kid/recent college grad that is fresh off a liberal indoctrination who really hasn’t worked much in life outside of academics, and is buried in student loans who is p~~~ed off at the system because he fell for the trap. I just find it confusing how he can be so strongly opposed to the government taking his s~~~ that he works for, while at the same time thinking that anybody that is wealthy should just start handing over the cash because they only became successful by exploiting people and riding on other people’s backs.
I hope he becomes successful some day, and when he does he will realize why we disagree with him. Until then he will probably just continue to be p~~~ed off at the system because he hasn’t made enough good decisions in life yet to feel like he’s winning the game.
@Tiga K – But according to Veni that passive income you could make off rentals is bad, you are just exploiting your tenants.. Just because you did something in life to give you the resources to own a collection of rental properties and could live off the passive income you bring in, he thinks you shouldn’t be allowed to benefit from those resources.
You should check out the Mr Money Mustache website sometime, I think you’d like it. Its full of people who aim to keep their living expenses low, maintain a high savings rate, and retire early and live off their passive income. They all have pretty much come to the conclusion of f~~~ consumerism…if you are happy with less stuff you need less money, and the less money you need the more you can save and the smaller of a nest egg you need to live off of the passive gains it produces. Of course…their view of things is the polar opposite of Veni’s because he hates to see people make passive gains, but its a great community of people if you just want to get some ideas on how you can simply make enough and then enjoy your life and not be strapped down to a job…I know that’s what I’m aiming to do!
Beer. You are clueless in this. You said:
Inflation effects all dollars equally. It doesn’t effect the rich any less.
If I am a big corporation, and borrow 100 billion dollars from the bank, that the bank prints out of thin air and causes inflation, but I am able to buy 100 billion dollars worth of product at current prices before inflation has trickled down, I have, as a big corporation, taken your s~~~ and left you with the tab. It takes TIME for inflation to take effect. Critical f~~~ing time, moron.
Beer. You are clueless in this. You said:
Inflation effects all dollars equally. It doesn’t effect the rich any less.
If I am a big corporation, and borrow 100 billion dollars from the bank, that the bank prints out of thin air and causes inflation, but I am able to buy 100 billion dollars worth of product at current prices before inflation has trickled down, I have, as a big corporation, taken your s~~~ and left you with the tab. It takes TIME for inflation to take effect. Critical f~~~ing time, moron.
I’m no expert but I don’t think that’s how it works man…
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. --Einstein
I’m no expert but I don’t think that’s how it works man…
The truth doesn’t really give a s~~~ what you think. You obviously have not watched Zeitgeist.
Stop worrying about unfairness; everyone knows it’s unfair.
Uhh, everyone doesn’t know it’s unfair. That’s a totally stupid f~~~ing comment. You can read the minds of everyone? You got people *in this thread* that you apparently agree with, that think it’s fair, lol. FFS.
That said I agree most with Doc and Beer
Shut the f~~~ up and go the f~~~ away.
@ Beer
I’ll check it out
@ youthful ignorance comment
That is a useless accusation in an argument by itself. Older guys don’t agree on every topic so life experience doesn’t guarantee anyone they have the correct worldview. I understand the value of experience, but it is used against us young guys all the time. Don’t believe in God? Youthful ignorance! Say you won’t get married? Youthful arrogance! Don’t like the same music as me? Youthful ignorance! You prefer green apples to red apples? Youth- no, I’m just kidding on that last one. The others happened though.
@ Beer
Yeah I just checked out that website a little bit. Thanks for sharing. Seems like a good place to rouse up my cheap bastard attacks. You should see me p~~~ off my friends and family.
Them: your shoes look like s~~~
Me: I’ve only had them for 16 months.
Them: oh great, this bulls~~~!
Me: why would I spend $40 when the shoe soles haven’t even fallen off!
Them: Alright.
I’ve already both mentioned, and linked several primary sources of information as far as the method that global finance is being handled. Sorry if you weren’t paying attention. Click the back button. I find it somewhat humorous that people keep attempting to frame me as a “liberal who loudly demands entitlements” when it couldn’t possibly further from the truth. The only thing I demand, is my f~~~ing prerogative back. I don’t care what laws say anymore. Laws are fiction. The function of law is to create and perpetuate an advantage for the ruling class and suppress and subjugate all others under the guise of protection. People who think otherwise are fools. What cannot be accomplished legally by the state, will be accomplished by the state illegally behind the veil of secrecy. Statism is a silly religion. People who believe what the ruling class tells them to are so easily manipulated. This is precisely why the state needs secrecy so much.. to maintain the illusion of legitimacy. Religious zealots who believe what they are commanded will do anything the state tells them to, because someone wrote it on a piece of paper. Never mind that laws actually have different functions and effects than what are stated in the legislation. Never mind that the majority of the populace can be against a piece of legislation and it can still pass, because the people have been completely separated from the legislative process. Never mind that our “representatives” must pass a bill to find out what’s in it, and are not allowed to take notes or tell the public what the proposed bill is. It doesn’t matter to me what the constitution says or what the populace believes. At some point you have to stand up for what is right. The entire populace can be wrong, and at this point they are worse than wrong, they are simply apathetic, ignorant, or perfect victims of social programming and indoctrination created by the ruling class. They have been wrong MANY times in the past.
..and for the love of god.. cut out the “Ad Hominem”. Bring actual facts to the table instead of just assumptions or criticisms about the person speaking, which by the way have mostly been false and have no effect on me. Let’s do this as well: Let’s cut out theoreticals. They are a waste of time… if we gentleman are truly of inquisitive nature, we can stick to only the facts.
“according to Veni that passive income you could make off rentals is bad, you are just exploiting your tenants..” Please don’t ever say things like this. First off, this is a lie. I never said any such thing about rentals, because rentals never came up. If you want to actually quote something I put in the forums, that would be fine, but you do not get to falsify my opinion in my stead. If a person built and maintains a place with their labor, of course they can charge a person to stay there. It’s when they pay someone else to do it for them that it becomes theft of labor. I already explained that, so don’t ask me to do it again. If you don’t understand, then re-read what I have already written about it. If you still don’t understand, tough luck son, it isn’t my responsibility to educate you; it is yours to educate yourself. Some people have no objections to being on the beneficial end of slavery, and therefore will not make the effort. It’s only a matter of time before the workers fully realize how they are being taken, and simply refuse to cooperate. This trend is already happening, as people are consistently dropping from the work force and starting up communes, farms, etc.
Read this book, and you will understand. https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin
I’ll make it easy for you..
A short history of fiat currency http://www.kwaves.com/fiat.htm
Causes for the fall of the Roman empire: http://www.tribunesandtriumphs.org/roman-empire/causes-for-the-fall-of-the-roman-empire.htm
The 10 planks of communism as applied to America today. http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html
Ok, Beer, I’m going to take a second stab at explaining this to you in a simpler way that will hopefully make sense if think about it:
If someone else does the work, you do not deserve to get paid for it. When a person does the work for you, and you take the money that they have earned, and then pay them a small percentage out of it, you have confiscated the fruit of their labor, without which you wouldn’t have made any money. “Profit” is the quantification of the value created by labor, confiscated from the person who created a product or performed a service. This is what a pimp does. A prostitute performs a service, and a pimp confiscates a large percentage of his or her pay. Likewise, even if you built the entire establishment, if a person is running it that person or those people should be the ones receiving the value, because if they weren’t, you would get zero. Getting paid for the work that other people do is free lunch. Another word for it would be “entitlement”. Let’s toss that word around a bit, shall we? Sorry, but even ownership of property doesn’t entitle a person to the fruits of someone else’s labor. The people simply cooperate with this for several reasons;
1. They don’t understand that they should have received the full fruits of their own labor.
2. They are not authorized to receive the full fruits of their labor via law.
3. People are compelled by law to acquire currency because it is illegal to subsist without paying the government.You don’t believe me? Go to work tomorrow, give me the money and I’ll pay you a small percentage out of it. This is mafia style “bite”, or “taste” using deception and coercion instead of brute force tactics. People who accept money for labor that they didn’t do are freeloaders. They are takers, not makers.
When a person does the work for you, and you take the money that they have earned, and then pay them a small percentage out of it, you have confiscated the fruit of their labor, without which you wouldn’t have made any money.
So now capitalism and profit are bad, are they comrade? Who is the individualist and who is the socialist, again?
I don’t know if you’re forgetting, ignoring or just unaware of the fact that the person who is working in a factory, a farm or a service job for the capitalist wouldn’t have any work to do at all if the capitalist hadn’t started the business, identified the product or service, purchased the tools of production, leased or built a facility, done the research and development, funded the creation of prototypes, paid for market testing… need I go on? None of these things would happen at all if it weren’t for the capitalist… your glorious, intrinsically valuable and highly entitled worker wouldn’t have f~~~ all to do if it weren’t for someone willing to take on the risks to create the job for them.
You say we should distribute the income from a venture evenly among everyone who had any part in its production. it doesn’t matter if you spent eight years getting a PH.D. in physics, developed a revolutionary new process and got a patent and a Nobel price or eight years lazily pushing a broom… you’re equally valuable, is it?. Talk about people confiscating your productivity,,, you don’t want to pay a few percentage points of tax but you claim to be willing to let the stoner buss boy who got hired yesterday take home the same amount of pay as the executive chef who spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars turning his restaurant dream into a reality.
I guess you must see yourself as the buss boy because if you were the chef… if you had ever created anything of value, I can’t help but think you would feel differently.
So yeah, let’s just tear down the whole system and we can all go back to being hunter gatherers… the “Original Affluent Society” without money, interest, taxes, wealth or any sort of material possessions at all. Sounds great, huh? Of course, 90+% of the human population would have to die for the land to sustain those who remained… but I guess you don’t care about their intrinsic value so long as you can convince yourself that you’re right, huh?
It’s no wonder people who believe such things are angry at the wealthy and see anyone with passive income as being brigands. If that’s not r-selected thinking, I don’t know what is.
Now we’re at the point where I’m starting to think I’m being trolled. Nobody could be this self-.contradictory and mean it,
A prostitute performs a service, and a pimp confiscates a large percentage of his or her pay.
Clearly you don’t understand the role of the pimp. When a hooker is accepting too little pay for too much effort, who secures for her a higher paying tier of customers? When she gets arrested, who bails her out? When a John tries to rough her up or refuses to pay, who protects her and collects for the work she did? When she gets lazy and starts feeling like she’s too good to work for her upkeep anymore, who keeps her on track and makes sure she remains productive? When she wants to be special and important, who takes her out and shows her a night on the town?
You actually think a pimp provides no value… and you probably think this of managers, directors, consultants, executives, politicians, bankers, investors… hey, just because you can’t see or don’t understand the value they produce doesn’t mean they aren’t producing any,
Are there pimps who are thugs? Yes, just as sure as there are CEOs who are embezzlers and politicians who are stooges… but that doesn’t mean that the entire category of them are predators, confiscating and living off the hard work of others and deserving our scorn and dismissal. How childish of you to suggest otherwise,
Doc….he’s saying there is no other option in the system but to slave away. You say capitalism, communism, socialism, and individualism, as if they have any real meaning. It’s not right vs left, it’s RIGHT VS WRONG. You can try to justify slavery to me all day until your f~~~ing head explodes but at the end you will still be wrong and we will still be right.
There is no option to just be a hunter-gatherer in the system because everything is owned and controlled. There is no option but to work for landed gentry.
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