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Veniversum 4 years ago.
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Once again, you are relying on straw man fallacy. I did not “go from predicting things like the elites want to eradicate 90% of the world” because I made no such prediction. I made the argument that you wouldn’t be aware of it, *if* they were. You haven’t crushed me with “common sense”. I doubt you understand the real meaning behind it, which has more to do with understanding the difference between what is right and wrong, morally. I have already agreed with you that guns are valuable in times of crisis. My theory about the Chinese Yuan is just a theory. My basis for it is in my observations and belief that the Chinese economy will overtake the economy of the United States, as well as the fact that the Rothschild family has a vested interest in China. I didn’t state this particular point as a fact.. only a theory and nothing more. As for Ad Hominem, Straw Man, and other fallacies, they are simply invalid forms of argument. The use of these is called “sophistry”, which is the crutch that you have heavily attempted to rely on and yet fell on your face. My “Goal Post” and entire contention can be summarized as follows, in accordance with the subject that the original poster (Cipher) was discussing:
1. Fiat currency is backed by labor. Since it is not backed by a commodity, it has no value to anyone possessing it unless they can actually purchase a future product or service. It’s store of value is the “Full faith and credit of [insert government here]” which translates to the willingness of a government to coerce their subjects into producing and providing a service. By any other name, this is called slavery. Therefore if people decide to become independent, and refuse to provide for others and rather attempt only to provide for themselves, they are met with violence by the state. A billionaires worst fear is that his or her money will not actually buy anything for future generations of his or her family.
2. No one should be compelled into the work force. This is not freedom, and it is not liberty. I’ve already gone over countless times how there is an artificial cost now to subsistence, and how people are being denied access to land that isn’t being used by businesses, homes, or is otherwise uninhabited. This was instituted through the 10 planks of communism.
3. Many poor people are working jobs that they have no interest in or passion for because they are mandated by law to acquire currency in order to exist. This results in their total misery, in addition to the fact that they only make just enough money to maintain a bare existence.
4. Many rich people are acquiring more currency than they could possibly ever spend and yet are not necessarily happy with their lives. I’ve already listed the two major reasons that rich people might not be happy. One only has to view interviews of a variety of rich successful people to find the ones that aren’t happy. There are quite a few.
5. Authority = slavery. There has never been, and never will be LEGITIMACY to SLAVERY.
6. Genocide is inexcusable. The worst offenses of it in history were perpetrated and carried out by the ruling class using the power of government.
7. War is used to convince people that it is a matter of survival to be obedient. It is also used to destroy any opposition to the ruling class, and to institute new draconian measures of totalitarianism, as well as further enrich them, the shareholders, through the stockmarket, as well as the financiers through debt creation.
As for “Common Sense” let’s consult Mr. Thomas Paine on the issue where he said this:
“The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Many circumstances have, and will arise, which are not local, but universal, and through which the principles of all Lovers of Mankind are affected, and in the Event of which, their Affections are interested. The laying of a Country desolate with Fire and Sword, declaring War against the natural rights of all Mankind, and extirpating the Defenders thereof from the Face of the Earth, is the Concern of every Man to whom Nature hath given the Power of feeling”
If you can’t refute any of this, then you haven’t demolished anything other than your own credibility, BEER.
Not quite sure how you can call Tesla an arrogant moron buddy.
When you’ve invented something better than remote control, radio, wireless information transfer and AC electricity then maybe you might have a high horse to sit on…..
So……….. dunno…. rather a silly thing for someone to say.
There is no doubt that the man was a genius and had an innate understanding of the nature of electromagnetism that far surpassed those of the people of his day. Furthermore, he had a rare and unique gift in his ability to visualize working machinery and build prototypes that worked directly from those visions. Truly extraordinary.
But when it came to bringing those technologies out of the lab and into public use, he was an utter and complete failure. He was so certain that he was right and that his ideas would be adopted by science, business and the masses simply because they were right that he almost got them lost forever.
As I said, had not first Westinghouse and later Edison capitalized his ideas and eventually popularized them, they would have been lost. No paper designs, few useful notes, inability to work with others and total disregard for the process of financing, developing and bringing a product to market left Tesla a lab scientist at best… but his greatest fault was his arrogance that he could bring his ideas to the world through showmanship and force of personality alone.
He built parlor tricks and one-off toys while his “competitors” built systems and processes and products and services and corporations. Had they not first financed and then eventually appropriated his ideas from him, nobody aside from a few shocked and amazed theatre goers would ever have seen them in action.
As I said, the man was a savant when it came to electromagnetism but an idiot everywhere else.
That may be true Doc, but that wasn’t Tesla’s fault. In this system, bringing ideas to fruition requires investors; people with a lot of money. It doesn’t make him stupid that investors decided not to take his ideas and back them financially. It makes him unfortunate.
Last time I checked, society DID embrace his genius for the greater good. This is why you have alternating current running in your house right now. That makes him far from a moron. Alternating current is proof.
I can’t believe you’re holding up the proliferation of AC current as proof that society does the right thing even when money is not involved. Edison crushed Tesla and took his ideas and made gobs of money putting alternating current into widespread use. Tesla didn’t do it and “society” didn’t do it, Edison did it and it was practically theft and he got filthy rich at it… and thank f~~~ing Christ he did, too because it wasn’t going to get done any other way.
You got any more foolish ideas in there? And no, criticizing your ideas as foolish is not a criticism of you, though I would happily do that as well if it wouldn’t derail things further into more complaining about method rather than addressing content.
That may be true Doc, but that wasn’t Tesla’s fault. In this system, bringing ideas to fruition requires investors; people with a lot of money. It doesn’t make him stupid that investors decided not to take his ideas and back them financially. It makes him unfortunate.
Edison hired him, Lane and Vail financed Tesla Electric Light & Manufacturing. Brown and Peck financed the Tesla Electric Company. Westinghouse hired him, Morgan financed Wardenclyffe Tower.
He came into Edison’s company c~~~y and arrogant and left in a huff because he wanted more cash. TEL&M died because Tesla was too busy inventing new stuff that couldn’t be brought to market rather than building an electrical utility that could actually put those inventions to practical use. Most of the practical AC systems and standards were developed on Westinghouse’s dime using his engineers and systems in constant conflict with Tesla and eventually had to buy out Tesla’s horsepower royalties in order to allow continued development….
I could go on about how Tesla lacked no recognition or financial backing and how it was his inability to work with others, translate his ideas into publicly useful systems or compromise his genius for practical concerns that limited the scope and success of his personal efforts. I maintain my position that the fruits of Tesla’s inventing genius are a part of our modern world despite Tesla the man, not because of him.
If you can’t refute any of this, then you haven’t demolished anything other than your own credibility, BEER.
Lol, straight to the ad hominem attacks when your hypocrisy gets called out eh? Might as well just move the goal posts again.
Anonymous24What would that world look like? How would we go forward? Would people continue to put in the effort to just maintain the world as it is? Would they be happy living a sustainable life with zero growth? This isn’t just the few, smart, socially aware… this is everyone. Is such a world even remotely possible?
I don’t know, but I do know this: Growth enabled via FIAT currencies allow those at the top to keep getting richer while the middle class keeps getting pushed down. Infinite growth is impossible, as last I checked this planet and it’s resources are of a finite amount.
Also, you and gold sure do have a problem. If gold is not a viable choice for currency or to back a currency, why did the U.S. destroy Libya right after Ghadaffi said he was no longer going to accept FIAT “Federal” Reserve notes (petro dollars) for his countries oil? From what I understand Hussein also was just about to get away from the “Federal” Reserve money as well right before the U.S. destroyed that country, based on lies. Sounds more like a country who is keeping a ponzi scheme in effect at all costs. Interesting how the world’s biggest conflicts of late are in regions with oil that Israel does not like and who do not want to play the game by rules that the Fed want’s them to.
He owned a ton of shares of westinghouse, but those slimy f~~~s went and told him that the business would go bankrupt if he didn’t give back his shares. And he did it. His main error was trusting financier liar types.
They were not shares, they were royalties on AC horsepower paid at a rate that was struck when the expectation of output was low but which, once output (and the expense of paying for it) increased, would have stifled growth… much the same was as if had agreed to pay a yuan worth of commodities per pound of bulls~~~ some people were to contribute to this thread at the beginning, I would be broke and unable to continue to make further payments now.
edison never popularized his ideas, he went out of business continuing with DC bulls~~~. They hated each other.
You are correct. Pardon me. I should have said Westinghouse. General Electric did not really start using AC systems until after Edison left the building.
Last time I checked, society DID embrace his genius for the greater good. This is why you have alternating current running in your house right now. That makes him far from a moron. Alternating current is proof.
I can’t believe you’re holding up the proliferation of AC current as proof that society does the right thing even when money is not involved. Edison crushed Tesla and took his ideas and made gobs of money putting alternating current into widespread use. Tesla didn’t do it and “society” didn’t do it, Edison did it and it was practically theft and he got filthy rich at it… and thank f~~~ing Christ he did, too because it wasn’t going to get done any other way.
You got any more foolish ideas in there? And no, criticizing your ideas as foolish is not a criticism of you, though I would happily do that as well if it wouldn’t derail things further into more complaining about method rather than addressing content.
This wasn’t a “foolish” idea. If Tesla hadn’t came up with the idea in the first place, Edison wouldn’t have had it to steal. I never established this as “proof that society does the right thing even when money is not involved.” I never said that and that wasn’t my point. What I said was that society benefited from his genius for the greater good, and that was as a response to you essentially calling him “an arrogant moron who thought society would embrace his genius ideas for the greater good.” Now YOU are guilty of straw man fallacy. The entire point of bringing him up, is that he is just one of many examples of people who had world changing ideas whose value was not at all represented by the quantity of money he obtained. I also mentioned Antonio Vivaldi. I made the point that just because people are valuable, doesn’t mean they get paid for it. I still stand by that point, because it’s true. The method a person uses to make an argument makes all the difference. It aids in avoiding confusion about the perception and points of the person speaking. It aids in establishing the differentiation between true or false, and fact or opinion. It also helps guard against the use of manipulation.
Tesla’s genius is innately part of him. Doc is so f~~~ing desperate right now it’s pathetic.
Oh you! Can you not see that a man’s intellect can be subverted by his arrogance? It happened to both Tesla and Edison and it appears to be happening to you as well.
If you can’t refute any of this, then you haven’t demolished anything other than your own credibility, BEER.
Lol, straight to the ad hominem attacks when your hypocrisy gets called out eh? Might as well just move the goal posts again.
This isn’t ad hominem, because I didn’t actually criticize you. I simply pointed out that when you rely on ad hominem, straw man, and other sophistry, that you destroy your own credibility, which is true. Likewise if I tell you that if you stab yourself, that you are doing yourself harm, that is not criticism. I would advise you look up Ad Hominem and learn what it is so you can more closely identify it.
I don’t know, but I do know this: Growth enabled via FIAT currencies allow those at the top to keep getting richer while the middle class keeps getting pushed down. Infinite growth is impossible, as last I checked this planet and it’s resources are of a finite amount.
Also, you and gold sure do have a problem. If gold is not a viable choice for currency or to back a currency, why did the U.S. destroy Libya right after Ghadaffi said he was no longer going to accept FIAT “Federal” Reserve notes (petro dollars) for his countries oil?
That’s an excellent point. He was “conveniently”
executed after that.As for Tesla, the primary reason I brought him up was to prove the point that money is not the primary incentive for people to do things. Passion for, and interest in a subject is. I’m sure Tesla didn’t stop studying and attempting to invent things just because he was no longer getting paid. I don’t get paid to play guitar, I love doing it. I play guitar almost every day. Likewise, people who are interested in biology are going to study biology, even in their free time. This summarizes the whole point I was trying to make when I first brought Tesla and Vivaldi up. Money is not the primary motivator of human achievement. Interest is. People were making and creating things before they were getting paid to make and create things.
My E-penis is immense.
lol
Anonymous24Oh, forgot to mention that Ghadaffi wanted to create the gold dinar, a gold based currency…
Any reply Doc? Hello? Hello? Is this mic on?
Veniversum: While abolition of private property IS one of the ten planks of communism, private property has NOT been abolished in socialist and mixed economies such as the US. It’s better to look at this as a spectrum. Let’s call government consuming/controlling 0% of GDP anarcho-capitalism and government consuming 100% of it, as a total lack of individual economic freedom. At around 40% or so for the US, then, we are deemed what used to be called a ‘mixed economy’.; a mix of freewheeling laissez-faire capitalism, and socialism For comparison, in a country like Denmark, this ratio is about 57%. It’s useful to use this single metric as an indicator of economic freedom, because you can compare how it changes over time, and compare it with other countries. However, it doesn’t say anything about civil liberties, representation, etc. The government could, for instance, run a police State with no elections, yet still consume a small fraction of GDP.
2. No one should be compelled into the work force. This is not freedom, and it is not liberty.
One could also argue, nobody should get a free ride. In my case, the local government provided me K-12 education; let’s value that approximately $75K. Then the State provided 2/3 of my tuition to a State school (a large public university replete with labs and state-of-the art equipment to provide an expensive Engineering degree — an ‘invisible’ subsidy), let’s call that $25K (bear with me, late 80’s/early 90’s; today dollar amounts would be much higher). I am provided police and fire protection, as well as roads and infrastructure such as public parks, court systems to enforce contracts, and a National Defense. If I now choose to be a subsistence farmer, on land with 0% property taxes, you’ve got a huge ‘freeloader’ problem. I took advantage of a bunch of services I didn’t pay for. Now, I would ultimately like to see a lot of these services privatized, but even so, I used the public ones… So I need to pay the piper. I do, however, wish government would track how much was spent on these services at an individual level, and make taxes represent, say, only 150% of what was spent on me, or some figure such as that. Cap it. And instead of an inheritance tax, when I died, if I’m in arrears, take the money for whatever I owe ought of my assets. Otherwise, take NOTHING.
After about 25 years in the workforce, I’ve paid this debt several times over in various taxes.
3. Many poor people are working jobs that they have no interest in or passion for because they are mandated by law to acquire currency in order to exist. This results in their total misery, in addition to the fact that they only make just enough money to maintain a bare existence.
It is no different than it was in earlier times — you had serfs. They had to work. And it’s all relative. As far as only making enough for a bare existence, over 2 billion people live on less than $3.10 per day in the developing world. So we have it good in the West — even with the Big Gubbermint I love to hate. Poverty has been decreasing tremendously worldwide, primarily because of technology in my opinion, and by objective metrics.
As far as how big a crash might be, the stock market crash (different causes than a monetary collapse), resulted in a 90% drop in the DOW. That would wipe most of my savings away. After a couple years, it recovered much of its value. This did NOT cause a war. It did cause an increase in government in the economy. This sort of climate, promotes the rise of authoritarians — because the sheeple are afraid, and don’t understand economics. While Roosevelt didn’t build an army and conquer Mexico and Canada, he did get government involved in areas that NEVER would have been acceptable outside the Depression. So economic crises are the Health of the State, as well as War. Most monetary collapses have not caused wars — Brazil in the 1990’s was one example. A Greek collapse will not cause a war, either.
This isn’t ad hominem, because I didn’t actually criticize you. I simply pointed out that when you rely on ad hominem, straw man, and other sophistry, that you destroy your own credibility, which is true. Likewise if I tell you that if you stab yourself, that you are doing yourself harm, that is not criticism. I would advise you look up Ad Hominem and learn what it is so you can more closely identify it.
An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly.
You attacked my credibility without any basis simply because your weak arguments got wrecked and you couldn’t deny my irrefutable points. That’s attacking my character. That is ad hominem. Perhaps you should stop using words if you don’t know what they mean.
Anonymous24One could also argue, nobody should get a free ride. In my case, the local government provided me K-12 education; let’s value that approximately $75K.
You make a lot of fine points that I do not have the time to dissect, but this needs to be thrown out as it is a mandate. I would be fine with no schooling provided by the state. I see it as just another piece of social engineering that allowed two income families to exist (benefitting the state/corporations, one in the same at this point) while the state provided daycare, a form of indoctrination if you will, making sure that all citizens of the state learned early in life that one must be obedient to the state to ensure one’s “success”.
What did tesla do? He f~~~ing invented fluorescent lights, because he was such a moron.
This is why it’s so much fun to poke holes in Tesla online… because aspies can’t tell the difference between intellectual ability and social skills. As I said from the start, his ideas were genius but he was an arrogant moron.
Folks keep talking about what he invented as though all you have to do is invent something and then voila, Bob’s your uncle… but it was other people’s money, other people’s corporations, other people’s engineers, other people’s business acumen and even other people’s pig-headed arrogant battling over who was smarter that brought Tesla’s genius ideas to the public despite his total inability, even with massive financial backing and the eyes of the science and business world upon him, to do so himself.
The point is not that his ideas wouldn’t exist if not for him but that they only continue to exist despite what he did with them. The Tesla story is the story of every socially inept nerd who feels they’d be getting the cash and chicks if it weren’t for the stupid jocks and MBAs who constantly thwart them. That’s why it’s so popular a concept online and so easy to get ’em riled over.
But yay, Tesla is awesome! Free broadcast power rules, capitalism drools! Let’s all go f~~~ a pigeon! There, feel better now?
Anonymous24Doc, you are Neo with all these bullets of mine you keep dodging. The more solid points I make the more likely you don’t even respond…
/sigh
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