Search Results for 'chivalry'

[Anonymous]

He has a podcast called:

The New Chivalry Movement Podcast

The New Chivalry Movement Podcast

The tide is going to be high soon so I’m going paddling boarding. I’ll listen to it when I get back.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

the road wrote:

I noticed this with the comic scene

Glad you mentioned that too, and Phoenix for mentioning Star Wars.
It’s so obvious in the culture, you can’t miss it.

The Star Wars feminist commercial for Walmart really put the cherry on it.

Fascinating how the commercial actually shows how feminism works. Feministed women everywhere actually speak like that don’t even know what they are saying or believe any of it. She’s like ….. 5….. and even her own Mom is like “who put THAT into your head?? Uh YEAH!!!” because it SOUNDS good. But that’s what feminism does. It turns women into sock puppets parroting s~~~ they heard somewhere without even thinking

A single mother brainwashing her own daughter:
“UH WHATEVER YOU SAY!!! YEAH!! YOU GO GIRL SISTER FRIEND!!! WOOOO!!!!”

Now lets look at the question she asks the girl “Why didn’t Princess Liea just LET the BOYS rescue her?”.

Not MEN……….. “BOYS”.

“LET the boys rescue her”.

That’s why chivalry is f~~~ing DEAD.
You could rescue a princess from harm and she will behave like she’s doing you a FAVOR.

—

… because Mario is a “strong empowered MAN unfettered by the antiquated gender roles of a bygone era”.

Try that on and see if it fits.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[Prefer Peace to PieceParticipant]

uchibenkei wrote:

That’s all women know about chivalry; the parts that benefit them and they think they’re entitled to.

Excellent point. The bitch is not entitled to what some man has.
If the bitch wants a taxi let her get a job to pay for it.

[mgtow_85Participant]

Whenever I get to the bus stop to go to work, there’s usually two or three bitches at the bus stop already.
And when the bus arrives, I ALWAYS board FIRST. I’m not the “gentleman” who lets the “ladies” board the bus first and have their first pick at the seats.
I’m sure those women have complained about it on Facebook. “There’s a mean man at my bus stop who ALWAYS goes first instead of letting me go first! Chivalry is dead!”
I don’t give up my seat to them either. I don’t give it up to women OR men. I just f~~~ing sat down and I need time to relax on a 40-minute bus ride. Go sit your ass somewhere else.

WOMEN killed chivalry. Plus, chivalry is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. Chivalry is not for “strong, mighty, independent women” who want to be the same as men. Chivalry was meant for the weak and the helpless who needed a little extra boost in their daily life to make things easier for them.
Chivalry should be pretty much limited to handicapped people, and the very elderly. If I look and see a hot young pretty, blonde-haired thing about to cross an ice-covered street with an 80-year old woman who needs a cane to help her walk standing nearby, I’d be the one to run my ass over to help the old woman out instead. That old woman reminds me of my grandmother. The hot blonde is an entitled bitch who thinks that her t~~~ and her face are her ticket to instant help everywhere and she would expect it from ANY man, unless she’s also the one who cries “rape” at every man who so much as looks at her cross-eyed.
You want chivalry from ME, you have to earn it. You weren’t entitled to it just because you were born with different chromosomes.

[Anonymous]

hellraider wrote:

“chivalry is dead”

Its mere conception is highly debatable…Chivalry not the kid.

[uchibenkeiParticipant]

I was thinking about chivalry the other day. Chivalry is not dead. Only the part that benefits women died. That’s all women know about chivalry; the parts that benefit them and they think they’re entitled to. There’s a whole unwritten code of chivalry that deals with how a knight should treat children, elderly, his horse, how he should conduct business, ethics, integrity, honor, etc. It isn’t just giving up your seat for women or opening doors for women or laying your jacket on a puddle for her to walk on. Men of honor and integrity still exist. I deal with them everyday. But f~~~ the part that women think they are entitled to. When they act lady like, I’ll act chivalrous towards them. Until then, I’ll be chivalrous to everyone else in all my dealings.

I bathe in the tears of single moms.

[RedpillPrimateParticipant]

Pregnant women can go f~~~ themselves. Women are the craziest when they’re pregnant anyway.

Chivalry died out when feminists started burning their bras in protests.

[Anonymous]

Tell them to take it up with that usless c~~~ gloria f~~~ing stiemam. You damn stait chivalrys dead.You f~~~ing c~~~s will just have to het used to it.

Well, a 8 month preagnant woman rants about that “chivalry is dead” aka a men didnt gave her his seat.

Funny, the train is half packed with this KIND, EMPHATIC, HONEST, LOVING CREATURES CALLED WOMEN and NO F~~~ING WOMAN GAVE UP HERE SEAT FOR ANOTHER C~~~.

But, as usual, its the evil mens fault…

As a side note, i can only remember giving up my seat in the train two times, once for an old men barely limping around with a cane and for a preagnant woman.

And yup, the subway was full of women and none of them helped another woman, funny how the borg female mind works huh?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3596976/Rail-passengers-refuse-seat-heavily-pregnant-woman.html

[narwhalParticipant]

@KM

That’s understandable. But “feeling like you can’t” – or won’t – is every violent bitch’s big mistake. Even Whoopie Goldberg said “women don’t think guys are walking around with this idea of chivalry in their heads. If you hit a man, EXPECT him to hit you back”.

She SHOUTED it into the audience.

I would never let woman think I can’t or won’t. Just like that women in the parking lot ^^ and my other example above. She should know you CAN AND WILL and based on that alone, she will check herself or she is history.

But the thing is, most of the men (blue pill, mangina) will behave that way. It’s a calculated risk on her, one she probable has one a few times before. 100 years ago, I don’t think any woman would assume she could get away with that crap.

But I agree that she needs to understand that you hold the option of retaliating in kind. A response of something like ‘I will not allow you to strike me’ lets her know it’s on the table. Let her know that she’s not in control of the situation like she thought she was.

Ok. Then do it.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

narwhal wrote:

I don’t think that women want you to hit back, at least not as there first option. They’re hoping that you feel like you can’t. They want you to feel helpless, tearing down your confidence and self esteem. Then they can either get you to do what they want, or they throw you out with the trash because you aren’t a ‘real man’.

That’s understandable. But “feeling like you can’t” – or won’t – is every violent bitch’s big mistake. Even Whoopie Goldberg said “women don’t think guys are walking around with this idea of chivalry in their heads. If you hit a man, EXPECT him to hit you back”.

She SHOUTED it into the audience.

I would never let woman think I can’t or won’t. Just like that women in the parking lot ^^ and my other example above. She should know you CAN AND WILL and based on that alone, she will check herself or she is history.

“I could but I won’t” is the position of strength.
The most powerful nations don’ actually need to fire their nukes.

But I woman thinks “I CAN AND I WILL” and that’s a position of WEAKNESS.

narwhal wrote:

They can still challenge your manhood

Yeah. LET HER. What the f~~~ would she know about “manhood”.

Anonymous wrote:

Always amazes me how you hear the women laugh the loudest – they know its SO f~~~ing true.

When he asked “how many of you women wanted to smack your man this week?”
And some c~~~ shouts “EVERY DAY!!!!!” from the balcony.

She shouldn’t even HAVE a boyfriend or husband. If she wants to smack him every goddam day she’s with the wrong person and must be DUMPED.

Today.

Why would you even want to live with someone you what to smack every day.
F~~~ing c~~~.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[Zuberi TauParticipant]

It goes like this, you’re a man first and a human being second.
People shouldn’t be hitting anyone but if you’re stupid enough to think a vagina absolves you from any form of retaliation after attacking someone, you deserve everything that’s coming to you.
Chivalry is dead.

[Anonymous]

sidecar wrote:

Regardless of whether or not it’s true for men, women will never live in a post scarcity society.

Sidecar, I beg to differ, each one of us is adding a little scarcity both directly and indirectly as our multitudes continue to walk away. We’re the atomic bomb their decadence and overindulgence has been begging for.

No mater how bad it gets, I’m all done with chivalry! We’re their worst nightmare come true, we’re an insurmountable WALL with a bottom pit protecting it, we’re isolated us from their ruination, we’re free to live happier and fuller lives, far from the barren lands of gynocentric misery.

It really sucks for them, their sewage discharge has finally risen enough to enter their potable water supply. They have real problems now! Plus all the imaginary problems they encounter day to day!

[Anonymous]

This is exxactly the kind of s~~~ that has made me swear off chivalry.If a women was really being raped in an ally,i would just keep on walking.I have been acused,not charhged thankfuly, for crimes i didnt do.(not rape.) At the time you dont know if things will get straitned out.Looking at 25years is motherf~~~ing stressful .

[the roadParticipant]

Who the f~~~ did he think he was?

Let that company take the hit and let it be a lesson to them. Chivalry is dead and it should stay dead. If he thought he was going to earn some pussy points for being a mangina then he’s seriously delusional.

#MANOUT

Hello Fellow MGTOW brothers,
I am excited to see that so many of us found this sanctuary called MGTOW.com. I have been at aw the past few months reading the forums. Happy to see that I am not the only one who sees the illogical cultural system in which we live.
It has been an interesting journey through life thus far. I am 40 years old, been married twice and have been in one long term relationS~~~. But it didn’t start there. I started noticing a problem with the way females act in our culture back in the early 1990s. This is where my story begins.
I grew up in a small west Texas oil town. I had a few girlfriends and one high school “sweetheart” If one could call her that. My mother and father were together during my childhood and still are today. My mother has only recently begun to latch on to the gynocentric culture. And believe me when I tell you, my dad is a miserable SOB since she discovered her new paradigm a little more than a decade ago. I can’t believe they are still together today. My dad only holds on because she will take him to the cleaners during his retirement years. So he is stuck. But I digress. Both my parents taught me that woman are fragile delicate flowers and to treat them as such. I should always have good manners and always make sure the female is treated with respect and dignity. I was actually like this and had this chivalrous way of thinking. The thing is, when I went to school or any social gathering with pears, I witnessed a different type of attitude coming from the girls. The girls who were supposed “good girls” were total whores, and arrogant bimbos. They acted as if they had something over me and other guys my age. They still expected the chivalry but acted like complete prostitutes and arrogant c~~~s. Most of the girls I encountered over my teen years were nothing but complete whores in training. From the c~~~s with money, to the hos in the projects, they were all very similar. I never really thought about the differences between what I was seeing in society and what my parents were trying to teach me. After all I was only a teenager. But when one looks back on the past, the problems we had and the solutions to them are clear as day.
I moved away from it all when I was 19. I went to work on a ranch in Wyoming for a couple years and was able to clear my head. So I thought. I “figured it all out” so I thought. From society’s teachings, I was going to find a good woman and settle down. So I moved to a small town in Wyoming and went to school. That is where I met my future wife. No better place to meet a mate than in college so I was told. At the time, I was studying photography and mathematics. I met a “great” girl who had a religious upbringing and was the perfect girl with morals and ethics so I thought. I should have known what she was when we were dating but I decided to bury my head in the blue pill sand. One day when we were dating I came by her house to find a guy’s truck parked in her parking spot. When I confronted her, she told me a lie and I believed her. It wasn’t until months later that I found out the truth. But it was too late, we had been married. She wanted to please me, I could tell, but there was a side to her that wasn’t quite right. She was a pathological liar come to find out. The whole thing had been a sham. Everything she told me about her past were all lies. She knew that I found her out and she was desperately seeking a way out of the relationship after I confronted her about her lying and unfaithfulness. She said she didn’t want to be with someone who didn’t trust her. I told her I didn’t want to be with someone who I couldn’t trust. One day, I came home for lunch and she was home. She said she wanted me to buy her a new car and that would make her happy. At this time in my life, money was not coming in as I was 21-22 years old. I told her we could not afford a car right now but later down the road I would get her something new to drive. She was very unhappy about my stance on the car and she began to cry and call me an ass hole. She wouldn’t let me leave to go back to work as she was blocking the front door so I left out the back door and went back to work. I few hours later, I was closing up the shop where I worked. A sheriff deputy pulled in and asked my boss if I was there. Of course I came running as I heard my name and thought something was wrong. The sheriff told me I was under arrest. When I asked for what, he wouldn’t tell me. After he put the cuffs on me he told me that I was under arrest for domestic violence, particularly for dropping my wife on her head. Yep, that is what she told police. I was never in anyway physical with this woman. She was such a liar. After I finally got out of jail, I went home to find my wife’s brothers and some other guy at my house ready to do battle. I just stood up to them and they eventually left. Later on I had to go to court and was order to take anger management which I did. Come to find out, she actually slammed her head against a wooden threshold on purpose so they would believe her story. And they did of course. What a c~~~! I divorced in this crazy bitch in 1999 and joined the Marine Corps at age 23. OORHA!
This is where it gets good as the lessons of the past relationship never took hold. I was under the thought process that I was unlucky and just found a bad apple. NAWALT? Right? … I made it through three years in the military without getting married. Those were the best times I had in the service. I already had someone barking orders at me and didn’t need another order barker in my face when I got home. I loved life! I could go long trips, pick up girls in bars, and make my own way. But I kept seeing my friends meet girls and marry them quickly and it seemed to be working for them. What a stupid observation on my part. The outside looking in is always better as we find out later in life.
It all changed when I returned home from the Afghan conflict. I wanted to get a wife and be happy again. The teachings of my upbringing came back to me like a vengeance. I needed a mate and that is all I focused on aside from training in the military. One day when I was home on leave, I went to fill my grandfather’s prescription at the pharmacy and there she was behind the counter. The good looking, down to earth girl I had been looking for was standing in front of me filling my grandfather’s prescription. She was like an angel. WOW, I was stupid. Just writing this makes me mad at myself all over again. Anyway, We immediately hit it off and she would come down to San Diego to visit and I would make frequent trips back home to see her. 6 months later we were married. She moved down and of course I got a bump in pay ( BAH ect..). Things couldn’t be better. Then we found out that she was pregnant and we were very excited. It was a happy time. There was some talk between her mother and her regarding whether or not she should terminate the pregnancy. I was not involved in those discussions, but I was able to convince my wife to have our baby despite her mother’s opinion. At this time I got called to go to Iraq. I would be gone for at least 6 months. I ended up doing 8 months in Iraq and had a few close calls in the war theater (See the movie “Sever Clear” to lean more. I am in this movie/documentary several times). I returned home just in time for the birth of my baby girl. It was a happy time indeed. My wife asked me to not reenlist and to get out of the military all together. So as I came up on my EAS I thought long and hard and made the choice to get out for the sake of my family. So I did.
We moved to a town in Texas where I would go to School on the GI Bill and she would work at a local pharmacy once our little girl was old enough to go to preschool. I started a degree in business, economics and finance and worked part time at a paint store. My wife mainly took care of our baby and did odd jobs for people around the town. She started growing distant and taking frequent trips to her mom’s and other family members during my second year of school. I had obligations at school and work and couldn’t go on most of the trips with them. Come to find out, she was seeing a guy who was a single dad with two kids. I did not find this out until after she left me. I came home from work one day to find everything had been cleaned out. Everything! Pots, pans, beds, cleaning supplies. Everything! Pictures were left behind by accident. She also took out the saving account. She took my 3 yo little girl and left me with nothing. Not even a pot to p~~~ in. I was ruined in my mind. It was awful. I had no idea what went wrong. I was shocked and could not believe that I could be betrayed by this woman who I loved and had a child with. It all came to light later on. Time has a way of revealing the truths that are all so inconvenient.
My mother was not happy with me at all. My father was livid and would hardly talk to me. They could not understand why their son could be going through a divorce AGAIN. In their minds it was obviously a problem with me. After all, who is the common denominator? That’s right, It is good ole me. So they wanted to make sure I knew how to treat woman and I had a long lecture at the age of 28. It turns out, I was doing what they taught me to do. I was providing for the family. I was offering love and emotional support all the time. I was leaving little love notes on the fridge. I would give my wife several breaks a day from the baby so she could clear her head and get away. I understood all this. I was doing what I was taught and quite frankly felt good about doing it. My wife was the one missing something. She spent her days watching feminist propaganda on daytime TV and I would hear about how men are s~~~ and women are gods all the time. I of course being the magina that I was, I would not dare disagree wholly. When she would start telling me about what she heard on Ellen or Oprah, sometimes I would say things like, “that is a bit extreme don’t you think?” That would always cause her to get p~~~y and I would always back down. Until one day I had enough. I told her that I thought she may be mentally ill. Her thought processes were always backwards and she had such a s~~~ty way of looking at people and situations that there must be something wrong with her brain. It was the only thing I could come up with as the problem. Certainly she wasn’t evil on purpose? Right? Well, that was it for her. When I came home from work the next day she was gone. After a few weeks, I filed for divorce. She still took me to the cleaners and I lost every round in the divorce proceedings. I lost everything, from custody to child support to geographic restrictions. I lost every round! This is when I promised myself that I will never marry again!
She got engaged to a low IQ dumbdumb who she was seeing while we were still married. ie the frequent trips ect… He was going to save my ex-wife from her ass hole ex. Right? Not quite. This guy had two kids so my little girl had a step sister and brother. My ex-wife was going to adopt these two kids as well. They ended up getting married a few months later. A year later, she filed for divorce. Interestingly enough she filed for divorce on the same day she was to adopt his two children. She left him high and dry as well. What a C~~~!
She went through several other men in the course of a few years. She would take my little girl on all her excursions across the western half of the country. She would go live with this guy then go live with that guy, then another. One day during a visit, my little girl tells me that a drive by shooting had occurred at her house and the bullet went through her bedroom wall. At this point, I was not a happy man. I knew that a little girl needs her mother but this was completely ridiculous. It turned out that my ex had shacked up with some thug who had a questionable past to say the least. I finally got fed up with the nomadic bulls~~~ as she was taking my little girl out of school and moving to another town every time she fell in love. I filed for full custody in 2011. $15,000 later I lost every round in the custody proceedings. The judge did not care about the drive by shooting or the nomadic lifestyle of my ex wife. Even though I was a hard working, well educated man with a good job and a veteran, I was told that my child will remain in the custodial custody of her mother and I was ordered to pay more child support. That was my first real dose of the red pill and it was very hard to swallow.
Shortly after, I became a disaster. I still thought something was wrong with me. I needed a woman. I needed companionship. But all these women are s~~~. What did I do…. I just started dating girls like crazy. As soon as I saw a major flaw in one of them, I would duck and run. It was exhausting. I finally stopped the madness when I moved for work. I liked the single life and made the most of it. My friends and family kept asking me when I was going to find someone and settle down. This brings me to the latest of the womaen in my life.

I ended up landing a big job. I moved to the big city in Texas. I promised myself that I would not meet girls in bars and I would find a good place to meet nice girls in the city. One day, I was outside on the porch of my apartment and a girl walks by with her little chihuahua puppy. I said hi to her and never thought anything of it again as she was not all that attractive and she didn’t seem all that interested in me either. A few days later I saw her again and we hit it off. I started going over to her house every day after work. We would go eat and just hang out in her apartment. We talked about everything. Culture, work, music, politics etc.. I thought that I found a unicorn. Life was great. I asked her out and we had sex all the time. It was fun. I had her move in with a year later and that is where the trouble began.
I came home from work on night and she was not there. So I called her cell and no answer. I called several time a few hours later. Then she showed up slobbering drunk yelling at me. Telling me I have no right to call her as many times as I did. She threw some things and then stabbed my couch with a kitchen knife. There was a lot of yelling and screaming so I left as I was sure the police would be called. We both left for the night. When I came back she was there and she never said a word about what had happened. She acted as if everything was normal. I wanted to talk about it and she said she did not want to talk. Then she said she forgot the whole thing even happened. These kinds of events would happen for several years. We would have 90-100 days of peace and then she would have a drunken episode. Every time I tried to talk to her about the problem she would tell me she didn’t remember. This was frustrating because I wanted to make it work. It was hard for me to admit that she had a problem. It turns out she had a feminist friend and mother who would tell her how men are the evil beings on the planet and must be exterminated. I kid you not. She actually told me that during one of her drunken rages. I started recording them too. I kicked her out several times and she would always come back. Whether it was me feeling lonely and sorry for her or her just needing more money or a place to stay. When I moved away to Arizona, I thought it was over. We broke up, but she followed me here. She lived with me for the first year, Things were ok. She did not have a job and I told her that I would pay for her real estate exam and she could sell houses. She agreed and was excited. But the excitement shortly subsided when she realized it was a tough road. She told me just wanted to get a job in an office somewhere instead. I though ok, I just paid $4K fort this school but you can stop trying to sell houses if it makes you happy. What a mangina as was!
My little girl would visit every summer and she would treat her like garbage. I asked her not to drink in front of my little girl and she blatantly did it anyway. Telling me I am judgmental. She would get drunk and cause arguments right in front of her. All the while, I am trying to bring sanity to an insane human being.
She is still in my life but in a limited capacity. I cannot get rid of her completely because she threatens to blackmail me if I cut her off. So I am stuck paying for a few things of hers until further notice. I hope she finds a white night soon.
I have noticed similar traits in all women I have met. We can all tell that the arrogance and misandry are in full force into today’s culture. Most of these women have no clue that they are victims of the government and culture gone completely buttf~~~. I for one will not participate in the madness any longer.
Since I have made my choice to be MGTOW in September 2015, life has only gotten better. I thank you fellow MGTOW brothers for writing in the forums as they keep me pointed in the right direction.

Cheers,
Liberty@last

[MattNYCParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

Thanks KM That helps with thoses little twinges of chivalry i have yet to fully shake off. We owe them nothing.

The bluepill programming dies hard man, but eventually it does.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Anonymous wrote:

Thanks KM That helps with thoses little twinges of chivalry i have yet to fully shake off. We owe them nothing.

I’m note even saying it for that reason, or suggesting men “shouldn’t do anything for women” JUST BECAUSE women have that s~~~ty attitude.

Never once in my life, did I ever say, put forth, suggest or imply “I DON’T OWE YOU S~~~”, and I sure as f~~~ would never wear it on a goddam shirt – even when it’s true and I can’t f~~~ing stand that person.

I will even stand up for an extreme bitch at dinner table when she approaches. I won’t force a smile, but I will stand up just like I would for a MAN I can’t stand.

The problem with female attitudes is their use of the word “OWE” here.
Nobody is implying you OWE me anything – bitch.
It is already understood that “she don’t owe you s~~~” and “I don’t owe her s~~~” either.

But I won’t stand up for because I “owe” her.
I will stand because that’s called “being the better man”.

Women know as much about that as a donkey knows about playing a flute.

When men are kind to other people, we don’t do it because we “OWE” them anything. Buy her a drink. A meal. Pay any attention to her at all. Its’ a generous GIFT. Time and attention from a man is a monetary GIFT. But women all seem to have it in their heads that men “OWE” them, and we are OBLIGATED just because they are female. Just tell ANY woman simple “no” when she wants something, and you’ll see it as plain as day.

SHOCK on her face like you *OWED* it to her.

As a man, I am not even interested in receiving a gift, attention, affection, or someone’s time because they feel they OWE it to me. Do it voluntarily or get the f~~~ out. Women use the word “owe” because it’s a struggle for them to even THINK about doing something for someone else without expecting something else in return.

The very concept of throwing yourself in front of her to stop a stray bullet is something women think men “OWE” them too. Just like a $25,000 engagement ring. And it’s high time they are corrected.

The minute she thinks you “owe” her — if you actually DO it — it doesn’t even count as a +1!! Women actually behave like there is such a thing as giving her “the wrong gift”. When a woman will treat you like you’re an asshole if you DO NOT do what she wants, then doing it was never a +1 and it will only get you to 0.

For that reason alone… f~~~. that. s~~~.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[Anonymous]

Keymaster wrote:

BritGHOW wrote:

A quick google search brings up this article with a bit more detail on the attackers, detail which makes the men’s reluctance to get involved much more understandable.

It’s understandable the second any man realizes women don’t give a F~~~ about you.
Just look at how they treat their own HUSBANDS.

So f~~~ them all who think men OWE anything to women – especially women you don’t know.
They have over-leveraged. And those days are now over.

A little indifference goes a long way.

Thanks KM That helps with thoses little twinges of chivalry i have yet to fully shake off. We owe them nothing.

[The Laughing ManParticipant]

Male disposability by default makes them more valuable. Remember above all else reproduction is the underlying driver here. It’s not a sense of chivalry that puts women a children first, it’s the species propagation.

The real question is why are the resources and security today’s man can provide not enough for today’s women? Lack of fear they won’t be provided for, Disney, and gynocentrism.

I thought what I'd do was I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes...or should I?