Religion and MGTOW

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

I believe alpha and beta are generally valid concepts.

I would not have guessed otherwise, since I defined them in my post.

You said:

And if you can’t comprehend the idea of getting tired of the responsibility for women

I understand very well the idea of not wanting responsibility for women. I thought this was a discussion among MGTOW. Obviously, we are all of this state.
What I meant was that the concept of Alpha does not explain well (from a cost-benefit aspect) the invention of the God concept.
It is much more beneficial for women and Beta males to have a system of monogamy.

I do not understand what you mean by

a core Mgtow level, fine sir.

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Cetacean wrote:

This would mean that the work of the disciples in establishing a church is a crucial part of the Gospel.

No. Its different from what Rome did with the catholic church
and also with Martin Luther and protestantism.
Paul was increasing christs church and the body of christs, while the Catholic Church decreased it. The Protestants also didnt put gods law into place. I come back to that later.

Rome was a multiethnic state at the time of the first council of Nicaea.
Before the upcoming of christianity, the suncult (mithras)
with it worshipping day of the Sun at Sundays the dominant religion.
And real believers of christ cannot do that and got persecuted and killed ( for example fed to the lions in the collosseum )
for not following the command of the new born catholic church.
Constantine in year 321 at the enactment, was speaking of a “reverend day of the sun.” ( translated it from my german source, so i dont know if that quote is exact )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

extra note: in the bible Sunday is the first day of the week and Saturday the last.

.
They changed gods law. Whenever a nation is turning its back on the Lord, that nation will suffer from it. Throughout history it is like that always. Look at America, did better when there was more christianity. It is really the key to success to keep the law of god.

Now Luther:

He wrote in 1520 about the freedom of a christians.
That all christian are free and released from all commandments and laws.
Thats the christian freedom.

Sounds good first. But thats not gods law!

Thats not a free cristianity, thats a lawless christianity.
We want god to rule the earth.
Dont assume anything now, because I dont know what Luther really wanted.

Those churches have humans at the top.

But Paul did set up the Churches to spread christs teachings

1. Cor 9:21
to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Matthew 5:17-19King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[HitmanParticipant]

we do not serve god ! it is god that serves US .
ask and you shall receive..what do we give to god ? yet when we ask we GET from god ..
who’s serving who ?

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

I see. Thank you for your insight.
From what you said here:

Ohno wrote:

Its different from what Rome did with the catholic church
and also with Martin Luther and protestantism.

I infer that you mean to say that all of what we know today as “Christendom” is false. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, all fake.

How, then how are we to live? How are we to rid ourselves of 2000years of false religious tradition and find the right path in Christ?

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Hitman wrote:

we do not serve god ! it is god that serves US .
ask and you shall receive..what do we give to god ? yet when we ask we GET from god ..
who’s serving who ?

What do you mean? Is this a troll comment?

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

I apologise if you took my questions emotionally.
Could you define “Core MGTOW level?” more clearly, pretty please?

You said:

So if you understand alpha you should understand women congregating around them, thus you should understand an enhanced need for them to invent a reason to get them the hell away from them and paired off with a beta who has checked out of the system.

Is is your assumption that Alpha males want to rid themselves of women and want to get “the hell away from them”?

Perhaps, we are saying the same thing?
Perhaps, you are saying that Alpha males enforce the God concept and monogamy. This is not equal to having invented or spread it. In fact, I believe the the God concept is a bi-product of evolution. I agree with you that Alpha males enforced the God concept and marriage laws. However, you have not provided any good arguments as to why it would benefit Alpha males.
If religion raises the chances of a tribe surviving, then it surely benefits females. Alpha males do not benefit from an increased number of males in the tribe. However, if females demanded that religion was reinforced in exchange for their uteri, then Alpha males would have gladly done the women’s bidding. Also, Beta males would also benefit due to a reduced number of allowed females to one male. They may have helped spread the God concept.

Keep Swimming

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Cetacean wrote:

I infer that you mean to say that all of what we know today as “Christendom” is false. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, all fake.

No. One key message of the Good News, the NT is that Gods Son the exact likeness of god ( its in the bible, im getting sleepy ), the propheciesed messiah who fulfilled all prophecys from the Old Testament came down on earth, suffered on the CROSS for our sins and died so he can live again and therefore rightfully after his own commendments mary his bride again.
Because gods law says that a marriage only ends when 1 person dies.

Jesus is the bridgegroom and his church ( the chosen people ) will be his bride when Jesus comes back. Not going into details.
But its in the revelation.

Not all christianity is false…we will be tested by the lord.
Some already did get tested and passed I think.
The ones that got beheaded or stoned, because they wouldnt deny Jesus and become islamic, for example. I think they will be in gods kingdom.

Cetacean wrote:

How, then how are we to live? How are we to rid ourselves of 2000years of false religious tradition and find the right path in Christ?

What does your belief look like at the moment?

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Sorry to make you emotional.

You’re trying to oversimplify everything

I was actually attempting to dissect the reasoning behind religious MGTOW. I was interested in how they justified their beliefs in cross-section to MGTOW philosophy.I was in my “digging deep” that you began to feel threatened, which was not my intention, by what you got out of it.

My advice to religious MGTOW would be to follow your religion. Take what Red Pills you need from MGTOW, but do not attempt to conflate MGTOW with your religious beliefs. And leave it at that. It is not good for your religion, if you wish to keep it alive.

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Thank you for your response, so far you have the best.

I understand that the core Evangelium is consistent. But much else is in the dark, then?

Ohno wrote:

Because gods law says that a marriage only ends when 1 person dies.

Jesus is the bridgegroom and his church ( the chosen people ) will be his bride when Jesus comes back.

This glorifying of a husbands self sacrifice for the good life of the bride, I believe is not compatible with MGTOW philosophy.

I wish to know the truth. But here I am discussing the incompatibility of religion with MGTOW philosophy. I am not trying to belittle any religion. I simply cannot see a compatibility UNLESS MGTOW principles of self-determinism is changed.

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

I don’t feel threatened. Retards don’t make me feel threatened.

Very well, Then we part in good terms.

Keep Swimming

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Is that a threat?

How can a logical conclusion be a threat? I am simply reasoning the compatibility of the two ideas. My ideas can be refuted, if you are able. And I would like it to be refuted. So, please help me do it.
Also, my conclusions cannot be a threat because one cannot destroy an idea. The logical fallacies of the idea is the only thing that can destroy it.

Finally, I believe that MGTOW can have debates concerning the principles of MGTOW and what constitutes a MGTOW lifestyle. And I would appreciate if you would use logical arguments instead of infantile name-calling and self-victimization tactics.

But thank you for your responses in any case.

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Ohno wrote:

Not all christianity is false…we will be tested by the lord.

woops. I didnt mean that to say this, but when i edit it always says file not found.

I wanted to say “christendom”…and being a bit christian or just living gods laws without knowing and so…must be better than being opposed to christ, which are many…

Also I didnt mean to say “we will be tested by the lord” because I dont want to say that I knew what the lord thinks and will do…can only assume from the end time prophecies.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

What the hell is this s~~~?

Cetacean wrote:

I am simply reasoning the compatibility of the two ideas. My ideas can be refuted, if you are able. And I would like it to be refuted. So, please help me do it.

No problem.

The first thing you need to realize is that MGTOW is a lifestyle choice entirely based in reality.

Religion is not. It’s a belief system. You can be MGTOW, logical and grounded entirely in reality while still “believing” in any kind God, Santa clause or the Easter Bunny – if it gives you some kind of solace or personal guidance. Religion has nothing to do with MGTOW.

If you disagree, I would be happy to hear your reasons.

It’s not an opinion to “agree” or “disagree” with.

It’s a fact.

Religion is not ESSENTIAL to your existence.
It is an ENHANCEMENT to your existence – which you can embrace or reject.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Nope. I’m still right here, in your face.

See how nobody agrees with you?

Welcome back

It is good that so many are voicing their defence for a Christian MGTOW lifestyle. You will see later that all we say inform the third part reader. They will make up their minds and the discussion will evolve. That is why I keep asking questions and challenging your ideas. It is not a threat, please don’t be childish. This is how philosophy is done. You are after all in the Philosophy section of the forum.

Stop telling other people how to think.

I have not made any demands. I have challenged other MGTOW to think deeply about how Christianity in integrated with MGTOW ideas. And how certain MGTOW principles (these might change as MGTOW changes) are difficult to integrate into “conventional” Christendom, as we have established.
This has led us to begin to define a purer form of Christianity that embodies the true teachings of Christ.
You see? In our debate, we have made progress. And for that I thank you.

Some guys will see it as compatible. Some won’t. That’s MGTOW.

Indeed, third party readers will gain perspective into both Christian and MGTOW concepts through our discussion. I do not attempt to rid MGTOW of Christians. I have no stake in MGTOW or Christianity. As we have learnt from our discussion, both have changed and are changing constantly.

Do you see where we have come now?

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Ohno wrote:

woops. I didnt mean that to say this, but when i edit it always says file not found.

I wanted to say “christendom”…and being a bit christian or just living gods laws without knowing and so…must be better than being opposed to christ, which are many…

Also I didnt mean to say “we will be tested by the lord” because I dont want to say that I knew what the lord thinks and will do…can only assume from the end time prophecies.

I understand what you meant, no worries

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Keymaster wrote:

Religion has nothing to do with MGTOW.

From what prominent MGTOW have said, MGTOW makes fundamental claims about the nature of human sexual dynamics. Also, it makes claims about concepts such as love, marriage, liberty, etc

From what I understand, Religions also make these claims.

So we are at a crossroads. we must redefine MGTOW and remove the philosophical fluff, or begin to justify how its principles integrate into different religions

[Total LeeParticipant 1573]

Cetacean wrote:

This is how philosophy is done. You are after all in the Philosophy section of the forum.

You’re not a very astute “philosopher”.

Keymaster wrote:

Religion is not ESSENTIAL to your existence.
It is an ENHANCEMENT to your existence – which you can embrace or reject.

Those would be the basics. Try let that sink in for a while.

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Keymaster wrote:

Religion is not ESSENTIAL to your existence.
It is an ENHANCEMENT to your existence – which you can embrace or reject.

Would you say that MGTOW principles are essential to one’s existence?

I would say, no.

Then, both MGTOW principles and Religion are enhancements.

[Total LeeParticipant 1573]

Cetacean wrote:

I would say, no.

Nobody cares what you would say. MGTOW is about preserving your sovereignty above all other things which is essential to your existence. MGTOW fundamental number one.

You don’t need to be religious.

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Total Lee wrote:

MGTOW is about preserving your sovereignty above all other things which is essential to your existence.

Preserving one’s sovereignty is not essential to one’s existence.

Wouldn’t you say food, water, and sleep are essential to one’s existence?

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