Religion and MGTOW

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Recently, I’ve come across a subgroup of self-proclaimed MGTOW who are also religious.
Granted, many principles in old religions share similar views with MGTOW about women.
For example, Islam and Christianity are unequivocal about the superiority of men and about how women mustn’t assume important social positions.

However, MGTOW and religions are fundamentally opposed. If you are religious, you may have certain Red Pill philosophies, but ultimately you are not a MGTOW.
MGTOW advocate personal sovereignty. Serving a God is not personal sovereignty.
I might add that most religions command that men provide for women.
Men are told to be like God, God who looks after mankind, like a husband looks after a wife.
Making male utility and disposability the height of man’s accomplishment is not MGTOW philosophy.

If you disagree, I would be happy to hear your reasons.

Keep Swimming

[hellraiderParticipant 2837]

Well religion is probably the most evil and pervasive way that alpha men invented to control beta males and society in general.

I dont think a men can truly be free if he belives in the big, bad alpha male in the sky.

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Agreed

But I’ve heard it being argued that Religion became the solution for the human species to continue procreating.

Maybe homo sapiens are too evolved to want to keep procreating. to the extent that we needed to have an invisible Man in the clouds to force us to provide for women. It makes me sad, but I don’t know how to reply to those who make the claim that Religion (or any philosophy) is the middle ground for men and women. In return for male utility and luxury, men receive sex and the propagation of our species. Religion has served as the superordinate arbiter, making sure that both sides keep their side of the bargain. But not that we have no God (we’ve killed him as Nietzsche says), we have yet to find a way to control this gynocentric epidemic.

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Christians follow Jesus and Jesus said that he didnt come to change the law ( the torah ) but to fulfill it.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.

One of the meanings of Jesus being the “Alpha and Omega” is that He was at the beginning of all things and will be at the close.
Jesus is the first and the last.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

So God´s temple is YOU and no church that you can walk into.

Catholicism and Protestantism are both religions, but christianity is not.

christianity
(100% bible and only bible)

Therefore I find it illogical to count christianity as a religion.
And to say that catholics and protestants belong to christianity as well.

Thats how I see it and believe it.

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Thanks for the interesting response.

Indeed, there are many shades of Christ. And Christians come in all shapes and sizes. However, I don’t think the Christianity can be counted as a non-religion.

You said:

Ohno wrote:

Christians follow Jesus

If Christians follow Christ, I cannot see them following themselves. In fact, Christ specifically talks about leaving the self and doing as God wills. I believe that there is a profound scene in the New Testament when Jesus is praying to God before the Roman soldiers come to arrest him. He says something in the lines of “Lord, please don’t do this. But if it is your will, let it be done.” I don’t see how this is MGTOW.

Also, you said:

Ohno wrote:

Jesus said that he didnt come to change the law ( the torah ) but to fulfill it.

I don’t see how this is a valid defence for Christian MGTOW. If Jesus clearly says that the commandments of the Torah are to be followed, how is it freeing men to go their own way? I would like to know.

Are there any Muslims who can speak in behalf of Muslim MGTOW?
I am genuinely curious.

Thank you
Keep Swimming

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

that’s an interesting idea

You said:

hellraider wrote:

religion is probably the most evil and pervasive way that alpha men invented to control beta males and society in general.

Are you saying that religion was created by stronger, fitter men to control the weaker, passive men? Wouldn’t it be more commonsensical to be the reverse, that Beta males and women invented religion to control the Alpha male?

Keep Swimming

[OhnoParticipant 668]

maybe should watch…

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Could you provide some reasons why you believe this, instead of just “no” ?

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Cetacean wrote:

Indeed, there are many shades of Christ. And Christians come in all shapes and sizes. However, I don’t think the Christianity can be counted as a non-religion.[/

Many shades of Christ? Really?

Did Christ tell us to instituionalize a church?
Not that I know of.
Yet the churches did it.
And those who dont do what christ said can be called christians only because we were taught that they are, by humans?

If the bible is the truth and I have no doubts anymore, because I have seen plenty of proofs by now, then satan is real too and pulling the strings. So thats just playing in his hand. And the devils enemy is Israel. Israel is also not the State Israel. Israel according to the bible consists of the 2 tribes of Judah that are already in the land and the 10 missing tribes which are in europe and america and also the “foreignors” are welcome the same if they follow gods law.
Thats why Jesus send his apostles to Europe. Jesus will unite the 12 tribes in the end days. The Jews keep gods commandments but it was also prophecised that the jews wont recognize their messiah until the last days. And as you see now there is a movement going on and many jews woke up to this. Has to do with the internet too of course. Messianic Jews.
And the Christian tribes recognized the messiah but arent doing Gods law. The Playbook is written already…

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Could you provide some reasons for your assertions besides “isn’t it common sense?”?

Looks like you mistook me for user:hellraider

I asked an open question is religion and MGTOW compatible?
Hellraider said:

hellraider wrote:

Well religion is probably the most evil and pervasive way that alpha men invented to control beta males and society in general.

I dont think a men can truly be free if he belives in the big, bad alpha male in the sky.

To that I asked what is reasoning was for his claims.

I don’t understand why you wrote “no” to my question.

[Anonymous 42]

Ohno wrote:

Did Christ tell us to instituionalize a church?

It’s my understanding the body is the temple, the “church” is in you, you’re the church, not some stone gathering place, however, whenever two or more are gathered in his name, he is there, and that’s also the church.
The institutionalization of the church has made itself a tentacle of the state, giving us governmental matrimony in place of holy matrimony. A man becomes satin’s concubine through governmental matrimony performed by the church in the name of the state. THE BEAST!!!
MGTOW is a trapdoor in a burning building, an escape from being owned and operated by the state.
My opinion…

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Thank you for the response. This is insightful, I’ll look into Messianic Jews later. Thnx

Ohno wrote:

Many shades of Christ? Really?

Did Christ tell us to instituionalize a church?
Not that I know of.

By many shades of Christ, I meant that there are so many interpretations of the Bible because it is such an ambiguous book. If you look at how many denominations and schisms there have been, it is clear that the Bible is not the clearest book.

Also, I believe that Christ did tell men to create churches. You said:

Ohno wrote:

christianity
(100% bible and only bible)

This would mean that the work of the disciples in establishing a church is a crucial part of the Gospel. If 100% of the Bible is true and should be followed, then building churches is also included, isn’t it? I would appreciate a solution to my confusion.

You talked about how Jesus is coming back for Israel. How does that tie into men going their own way?
Also, if Jesus is only returning for a select few who follow his commandments, isn’t that a religion? or a cult?

I don’t disagree that Christianity has many teachings that free men from women. However, ultimately it orders men to live, not for themselves, but for the glory of a divine creator. The only way I can see Christianity and MGTOW being compatible is if God embodies all the MGTOW philosophies, which clearly He doesn’t.
How do I solve this confusion of mine?

Keep Swimming

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Cetacean wrote:

I don’t see how this is a valid defence for Christian MGTOW. If Jesus clearly says that the commandments of the Torah are to be followed, how is it freeing men to go their own way? I would like to know.

The question is strange…

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Men going their own way are going their own way relative to to women and their demands, not every thing in the world. Hence you ideas and assertions are off right from the beginning.

Thank you for the clarification.

So, how then do we set the parameters of MGTOW philosophy? I think we have come to an interesting intersection of MGTOW debate.

You said that I was wrong in my assumption that MGTOW advocate personal sovereignty.
You said that MGTOW is only about freeing oneself in relation to–

to women and their demands,

Have I understood this correctly?
Male utility and disposability is justified when God calls for it,
and, ultimately, MGTOW is about celibacy and following the Bible?

[CaliParticipant 753]

Religion is perfectly compatible with MGTOW, because religion is simply a belief in a specific moral code which affects your actions and your reactions to the world around you. Also, because MGTOW is all about my choice, I get to make my choices as I please. If I want to be a Christian, and if I want to do my best to do God’s will, then that is my choice. If I want to allow the Holy Spirit to help encourage me, then I signed up for it of my own free will. It’s your choice as to whether or not you are religious, but it in the end, it is your choice. Besides, MGTOW is all about doing what is best for you, and in the end, isn’t being a Christian the safer bet? Pascal’s wager may not prove whether God exists, but it certainly proves that it is more beneficial to believe in God.

As to what MGTOWER said, you are right that many institutionalized churches have turned evil, but every Christian must understand that the Bible commands Christians to assemble together for encouragement, and to help others within the Church (Heb. 10:25).

James 2:14-25 says that, in the same way a person is not alive if they have no pulse, a person’s faith is not alive if they do not display good deeds.

I would encourage every Christian to find a church to attend. Heck, I’d even encourage every non-Christian to find a church to attend.

Generally, it is best to avoid the huge denominations. I’d recommend an unaffiliated church, or maybe EV Free or something. Don’t go mainstream Presbyterian, and don’t join Catholicism (talk about institutionalized religion!).

Peace out, gentlemen.

Just a misogynist virgin hiding away in his mother's basement. Nothing to see here...

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Because it’s not common sense that betas and women invented religion to control alphas.

I see,
Why is it more commonsensical that Alpha males invented the God concept rather than Beta males?
Or is it possible that the God concept was created out of chance? I.e. that it became a bi-product of evolution.

I entertained the argument for the Beta male position as such:

Cetacean wrote:

Are you saying that religion was created by stronger, fitter men to control the weaker, passive men? Wouldn’t it be more commonsensical to be the reverse, that Beta males and women invented religion to control the Alpha male?

meaning:
(1) Beta males and women have a rational reason to control the Alpha male
(2) Alpha males already control Beta males and women in the mating game and thus would not need yet another form of control

Where am I wrong in this reasoning?

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Thank you for your response:

I understand that you see MGTOW as “men doing what they want to do and believe in what they want to believe”

you said:

Cali wrote:

Religion is perfectly compatible with MGTOW, because religion is simply a belief in a specific moral code which affects your actions and your reactions to the world around you. Also, because MGTOW is all about my choice, I get to make my choices as I please. If I want to be a Christian, and if I want to do my best to do God’s will, then that is my choice. If I want to allow the Holy Spirit to help encourage me, then I signed up for it of my own free will. It’s your choice as to whether or not you are religious, but it in the end, it is your choice.

Now what if a religion’s moral code (God’s will) required that you (1) became a utility to a woman, (2) became a utility to a church dominated by women, (3) demanded that you get married to enjoy sex and parenting ?

Are you claiming that MGTOW should be members of such communities (chruches)? I believe you are familiar with the state of Christian churches in the 21st century.

Keep Swimming
Cetacean

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Thanks for your response, although you didn’t reply my questions. I would appreciate if you could.

You said:

Alpha men got tired of all the responsibility of all the women congregating around them,

This does not make sense. As we know, the labels “Alpha” and “Beta” are concept we use to represent women’s views on male sexual value. An Alpha male cannot, by definition, get tired of caring for women, for he would no longer be an Alpha. An Alpha, by definition, is a man who can and does take responsibility for women.

You said about Alpha males creating the God concept:

So they invented monogamy and,out the idea of a God behind it

yet you did not provide any reason as to why they would feel the need to do so.

Then you go on to say:

it’s a compromise for the true nature of women and a flat out lie to convince betas that these ladies settling for them really love them.

A compromise for what ends? I assume you mean for the propagation of the species? In that case, answer this question: why would an Alpha male, who is competing against other males for sex, create a God concept to give Beta males a chance at mating as well as restricting themselves of having more than one female?

Keep Swimming

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

I see what you are saying in:

demands of women, not every conceivable notion. Got it, ace?

But what if the “demands of women” coincide with the demands of a God?

What will you do?

[CetaceanSpectator 34]

Not care, because I’m an atheist myself.

I don’t mean you, I mean your position.

What should a MGTOW do if his faith was against MGTOW values?

Perhaps the man should accept the fact that his faith is ultimately not for his sovereignty but for the glory of God, and thus discarding the core MGTOW value of self-determination.

I will say no more of this, for I believe those who read this thread will see my point.

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