US student Otto Warmbier was returned by North Korea blind, deaf and howling

[Ranger OneParticipant 16836]

Only a moron goes to these places, unless as part of a well-equipped military force. North Korea, Iran, Syria, Somalia, Congo, etc.

Might as well hop in a time machine and go on a sight-seeing tour of the Jurassic period. Snap a selfie with a T-Rex, LOL.

All my life I've had doubts about who I am, where I belonged. Now I'm like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation, no doubts. The path is clear. And what are you? Alive. Everything else is negotiable. Women have rights; men have responsibilities; MGTOW have freedom. Marriage is for chumps. If someone stands in the way of true justice, you simply walk up behind them and stab them in the heart-R'as al Ghul.

[sidecarParticipant 35864]

OldBill wrote:

I’m thinking. You’re just blowing smoke. And ignorant smoke at that.

Grow the f~~~ up. I really expected better of you than that, Bill.

You didn’t even know about SLCMs or that nearly every surface ship in the USN carries them.

The hell I didn’t. And I just explained to you why I discounted them long before this thread even existed as less than diplomatically effective.

I can kill the DPRK without parking a National Strategic Asset on China’s front porch. I can kill the DPRK with a precisely calibrated amount of force. I can kill the DPRK in a way that will limit the fallout which will not only effect China, South Korea, Japan, and Russia but also the entire Northern Hemisphere.

You are still not getting it.

Sure we can. We can also take out all of North Korea without bothering with the navy at all. But we want CHINA to kill North Korea, not us. We want China to sit at a table with South Korea and work out the dissolution of North Korea between the two of them.

The whole point of “parking a national strategic asset” on their doorstep will convince them to do exactly that. Playing around with a few surface vessels, or even a full carrier group, will merely be seen as yet more jingoistic military posturing, and will be ignored and get nothing but more jingoistic posturing in return. And then we will have to launch.

We don’t want to launch. But we need to let China know that if they don’t deal with their problem they will give us no option but to launch. Because this s~~~ can’t keep continuing.

Big Boss wrote:

I still have no clue why he was in North Korea.

Because he was an idiot.

There’s a certain brand of f~~~wit that can’t help needlessly putting themselves in harm’s way to make some stupid point. Whether it’s hiking at the border of Kurdistan or pulling down posters in Nork hotels, it’s all the same “it can’t happen to me” foolishness.

They’re like Japanese tourists who, having seen all the warning signs against petting the buffalo, can’t help but pet the buffalo. And don’t understand why they were gored for it.

[ghostParticipant]

sidecar wrote:

Sure we can. We can also take out all of North Korea without bothering with the navy at all. But we want CHINA to kill North Korea, not us. We want China to sit at a table with South Korea and work out the dissolution of North Korea between the two of them.

The whole point of “parking a national strategic asset” on their doorstep will convince them to do exactly that. Playing around with a few surface vessels, or even a full carrier group, will merely be seen as yet more jingoistic military posturing, and will be ignored and get nothing but more jingoistic posturing in return. And then we will have to launch.

We don’t want to launch. But we need to let China know that if they don’t deal with their problem they will give us no option but to launch. Because this s~~~ can’t keep continuing.

I am with sidecar.

sidecar wrote:

Because he was an idiot.

Yup.

[Bloody HeartlandParticipant 693]

He was an idiot for sure but I’d like to point out the irony in all the victim blaming…sure we do that for women, too, but it’s a pretty big double standard in the blue pill world.

"I have the fury of my own momentum." "With this ring I thee wed. Fire walk with me."

[OldBillParticipant]

sidecar wrote:

Grow the f~~~ up. I really expected better of you than that, Bill.

Clueless chickenhawks like you don’t even know what weapons are available to the US and yet you’re going to pontificate on foreign policy?

I get it and I’ve got it from the first. You want to threaten the DPRK in a manner that will make the PRC step in a solve the problem. The trouble is your proposed threat is so f~~~ing retarded and amounts to such a level of overkill that the PRC will immediately see it as a bluff.

We need to make a credible threat. Not one dreamed up by ignorant bar stool strategists who aren’t even aware of the many tools in the US’ arsenal or the fallout – real and political – that will come from using nuclear weapons.

Telling the PRC we’re going to park a SSBN on their front porch in the East China Sea in order to glass over the DPRK is laughable. Telling the PRC we’ve got a 200+ tactical nuke SLCM/ALCM bombardment plant designed to get the job done while minimizing collateral damage to neighboring nations and the Northern Hemisphere as a whole shows we’re serious because we actually put some serious thought into really doing the job.

This is as serious as it gets. This is war with nuclear weapons. We’re going to kill millions and we’re going to put tens of millions more at long term risk. That means we’re going to do the job with a few megatons as possible.

Edit: My apologies. I lost my temper when first writing this post and had to clean it up.

Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.

[sidecarParticipant 35864]

OldBill wrote:

Clueless chickenhawks like you don’t even know what weapons are available to the US

There you go again making that false assumption.

You want to threaten the DPRK in a manner that will make the PRC step in a solve the problem.

No. Wrong. You still don’t get it. Put down your copy of Jane’s and think about things for a moment.

We don’t threaten the DPRK at all.

In fact we don’t mention any of this to them, period, full stop. We keep them entirely out of the loop and ignorant. We want them to remain in the dark right up until the moment China tells them: “It’s over.”

(Or China just activates their embedded agents and lets the norks awaken to a new, pro unification Chinese led regime – it’s all good.)

Which is one more reason why we need to use subsurface assets for this. The norks WILL spot a surface fleet. They will know the game is up. They will respond to that. Badly. They won’t spot a sub, even in the shallow East China Sea.

China will possibly spot it on their own, but we want them to know it’s there. We will tell them all about it in advance.

Hell, just telling them we’re sending it might be enough to convince them to fix their s~~~ without us ever having to send it.

Admittedly we could send in an SSGN instead of an SSBN, which could do the job with a lot less collateral effects (I think the Michigan is already over there), but honestly we kind of want China to know things will be overkillingly messy if they don’t fix their s~~~.

This is as serious as it gets. This is war with nuclear weapons.

Wrong again. This is deterrence with nuclear weapons. It’s nuclear diplomacy, not nuclear war.

Nuclear war is what eventually will happen when rogue states like North Korea are permitted to continue developing their nuclear arsenals. The U.S. and China and Russia etc. have a lot of practice at not launching nuclear weapons. The norks do not.

[ghostParticipant]

sidecar wrote:

Wrong again. This is deterrence with nuclear weapons. It’s nuclear diplomacy, not nuclear war.

+1

[OldBillParticipant]

We’ll have to agree to disagree, Sidecar.

I’m still convinced you have no f~~~ing idea what you’re talking about and I’ll never be able to convince you of that fact.

Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.

[Ranger OneParticipant 16836]

OldBill wrote:

We’ll have to agree to disagree, Sidecar.

I’m still convinced you have no f~~~ing idea what you’re talking about and I’ll never be able to convince you of that fact.

OldBill wrote:

The trouble is your proposed threat is so f~~~ing retarded and amounts to such a level of overkill that the PRC will immediately see it as a bluff.

We need to make a credible threat.

Telling the PRC we’ve got a 200+ tactical nuke SLCM/ALCM bombardment plant designed to get the job done while minimizing collateral damage to neighboring nations and the Northern Hemisphere as a whole shows we’re serious because we actually put some serious thought into really doing the job.

This is a very good point. It can’t seem like pointless posturing or blustering. It has to be considered by China to be our actual war plan for taking out NK.

If it seems too over-the-top, the Chinese may think we are just mirroring Kim.

Its pointless to destroy NK if the radioactive fallout from a multitude of big nukes causes as much damage to Japan as an actual NK attack could.

All my life I've had doubts about who I am, where I belonged. Now I'm like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation, no doubts. The path is clear. And what are you? Alive. Everything else is negotiable. Women have rights; men have responsibilities; MGTOW have freedom. Marriage is for chumps. If someone stands in the way of true justice, you simply walk up behind them and stab them in the heart-R'as al Ghul.

[OldBillParticipant]

Ranger One wrote:

It can’t seem like pointless posturing or blustering. It has to be considered by China to be our actual war plan for taking out NK.

That’s what Sidecar will not or can not understand. Whether voiced or only implied, the threat has to be perceived by the PRC as both real and immediate.

If we’re going to force the PRC into taking action – something they’ve successfully avoided doing for decades now – the Red Mandarins have to absolutely convinced the US is days or hours away from nuking the DPRK back into the Stone Age.

Some barstool strategist’s plan isn’t going to convince them. It has to be a real plan which takes all geopolitical concerns into account because that is exactly the type of planning the US would do if it really had decided to nuke the DPRK.

Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.

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