For our Navy veterans.

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

Its not an issue of “training” if she decides not to follow protocol or orders. SHE MADE A DECISION—she did, not someone else, sorry no excuses accepted. A lt. J.G is the equivalent of a Army 1st LT, a company XO in charge of 120 guys. I have NEVER met a female in the military that was worth a pile of dog vomit.

[OldBillParticipant]

PistolPete wrote:

Its not an issue of “training” if she decides not to follow protocol or orders.

What if her training didn’t instill the need to follow protocol and orders? What if her training didn’t train her for the job at hand? What if her training didn’t weed her out for her incompetence?

It’s not a question of either her or the system being at fault. They’re both at fault for different reasons.

SHE MADE A DECISION—she did, not someone else, sorry no excuses accepted.

No arguments there. She f~~~ed up and the system f~~~ed up when they put someone like her in that position.

I have NEVER met a female in the military that was worth a pile of dog vomit.

Apart from a few nurses who were civilians in all but name, neither have I.

Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

OldBill wrote:

What if her training didn’t instill the need to follow protocol and orders

Let me see if I understand the thesis: Someone, anyone in the military needs to be “trained” to follow orders. I learned that little lesson 5 minutes after the bus pulled into the induction center at Ft. McClellan. Are you suggesting that this woman somehow/someway made it through training–including officer training and didn’t know that one is supposed to follow orders? I wonder if she expected her subordinates to follow HER orders…I suspect YES. Now if her subordinates are compelled to follow her orders then WHERE does the disconnect come from that immunizes her from following the orders of HER superiors. Just asking.

[OldBillParticipant]

PistolPete wrote:

Let me see if I understand the thesis: Someone, anyone in the military needs to be “trained” to follow orders.

Yes, someone does. Especially if they’ve been given a f~~~ing pussy pass their entire lives. If you’ve never been held responsible for anything, you need to learn how to be responsible.

ONCE AGAIN, I am not absolving Coppock of anything. She killed seven sailors. Period.

My contention is that Coppock isn’t unique. There are plenty of other Coppocks out there because of the failed system which places them in roles they for which they are neither trained nor suited. That system also needs to be held to account before it produces more Coppocks.

This isn’t an either/or situation Pete. I want them all to go down, the Coppocks and the assholes who created them.

Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.

[Puffin StuffParticipant 24979]

Coppock is a victim. A victim of the system.

/s

#icethemout; Remember Thomas Ball. He died for your children.

[743 roadmasterParticipant]

Jan Sobieski wrote:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/uss-fitzgerald-officer-pleads-guilty-role-deadly-collision/story?id=55021772

Is this appropriate? Is the punishment deserving of the crime? Should she have been standing watch at her rank? ignore the fact she was a woman. what is the standard?

Please give us your perspective.

My shock in all of this is it took this long to get a guilty.

A point. The military is one system where s~~~ rolls up hill. The ultimate responsibility is on command.

Have commented on this a lot on another forum. Unless things have changed in the years I have been out not only do you have radar, but men/well people on watch outside. Long before the ships came in contact all kinds of warnings would have been going off. It would take a total idiot to just ignore and keep going.

This from the article is a TOTAL DISGRACE!
” Under the guilty plea agreement, Coppock was sentenced to receive a letter of reprimand and three months of half-pay. But because she had earlier received a similar non-judicial punishment, the new sentence only added an additional month of half-pay for the junior officer. ”
TOTAL F~~~ING PUSSY PASS, this is not even a slap on the wrist. If I was a family member of one of the dead sailors I would be raising all kinds of hell. Men died under her command and all she is getting is a f~~~ing REPRIMAND! and 3 months half pay. Hell I am livid and not even in the Navy anymore.

mgtow is its own worst enemy- https://www.campusreform.org/

[joetechParticipant]

The argument about whether or not she was qualified to be standing that watch reminds me of when Kara Hultgren crashed her F-14 and died. It came out later that she was the sixth pilot from that squadron to have an accident. I seriously doubt that a Lt. jg. is going to be given enough authority to be able to crash a ship all by herself. I remember the U.S.S. Kennedy hit another ship while I was in the Navy. That was before they started putting women on aircraft carriers. It came out later that the radar had malfunctioned and they had their position wrong. The only device on board that showed the ship’s correct position was the dead reckoning tracer, which is an analog plotting table that runs on DC step voltage. I wouldn’t be too quick to blame the officer of the deck for this entirely. As has been pointed out, there were watches posted.

"Don't follow in my footsteps...I stepped in something."

[GregB0Participant]

Jan Sobieski wrote:

Is this appropriate? Is the punishment deserving of the crime? Should she have been standing watch at her rank? ignore the fact she was a woman. what is the standard?

As usual, Old Bill has done a great job of explaining US Navy and DOD policies and procedures, both during this thread and in post threads.

I will bring up one additional thought about how the Fitzgerald’s OOD lost situational awareness which resulted in this situation.

The normal ships complement for the Fitzgerald is complement:33 commissioned officers, 38 chief petty officers, and 210 enlisted personnel.

Officer are never displaced by COP or Enlisted members except under exceptional circumstances (Illness, combat losses, etc). This is one reason why junior officers perform all types of additional duties that assist in the overall running and functionality of the vessel, but are not directly relevant to the career path they might have been awarded upon commissioning. Field grade officers are wasted serving as OOD’s, as this duty is to ensure 24/7 management during non-combat operations and is commonly referred to “third shift” for civilian purposes.

Per the US Navy Billeting (Commissioning) Program:
“Assignments are made to meet the needs of the Service.
Grades and duties should be consistent; however, flexibility in making
assignments is a significant virtue of the rank-in-officer system. An
officer’s grade, therefore, generally should not be more than one grade
above or below the grade of the assignment.”

Given that OOD’s have very specific policies to follow regarding performing assigned duties, a LTJG is a very appropriate rank to provide supervision for the enlisted soldiers actually doing the work.

​"​My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it.​" - Clarence Buddinton Kelland

[ZarathustraParticipant 2246]

OldBill wrote:

explained in a thread on this topic last year that Navy’s deck officer school had been a rigorous six month course with a healthy washout rate at the War College in Newport. That course has been replaced with a set of self-study DVDs. Watching TV was how Coppock had been “trained”.

I met a guy a few years ago who was a helicopter mechanic for the army. We were discussing our jobs and he said: “The difference between your job and mine is that if you f~~~ up someone doesn’t get to retire. If I f~~~ up the consequence is smoking craters and death.”

The point is that training DVDs are appropriate for a desk job and not one where just one mistake can cause numerous fatalities.

[WarfishParticipant 408]

She was the OOD, she caused it, she should be hung from the Yardarm….

BTW – Fitz is being repaired right now >
57 Mil more for Fitzgerald

[RASmanParticipant 1994]

What used to be the military is now a big salad bar and day care center; God help us if we ever have a real war.

[OldBillParticipant]

joetech wrote:

The argument about whether or not she was qualified to be standing that watch reminds me of when Kara Hultgren crashed her F-14 and died. It came out later that she was the sixth pilot from that squadron to have an accident.

That’s another excellent example of the point I’ve been trying to make in this thread. Hultgren was responsible for crashing her F-14. Her command, the hurried training she received, and the people in the Navy and in Congress who wanted a woman fighter pilot as fast as possible were also responsible because they put Hultgren in a position where her mistakes lead to that crash.

In any accident there are proximate causes and root causes. A proximate cause is the action or decision which immediately causes an accident. Root causes are the systemic and/or management failures which allow a proximate cause to occur.

Hultgren and Coppock are the proximate causes. The system which trained Hultgren and Coppock, granted them authority, and placed them in that c~~~pit and on that bridge is the root cause.

Both causes need to be identified and fixed.

Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.

[Author]

Posts