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Ranger One 2 years, 5 months ago.
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Just one document.
That bulls~~~ again? I gave you a link to a book full of documents, documents you can also find online.
I have seen other documents.
Give one link to one primary document.
Do you honestly believe the 90% plus percent of the population of the white men in the South whom did not own slaves and never did, willing went to fight in a war so a few rich slave owners could keep their slaves?
Yes I do. Shelby Foote thought so too. You going to argue with his assessment?
They went to war because their “betters” told they had to, just as the poor bastards in the North did.
You cannot genuinely condemn a group when you support the same claims they do.
I’m not supporting their claims. I’m supporting the historical truth, a truth we need to remember if we’re to learn anything.
They want to throw it all down Orwell’s memory hole. That’s the last thing we should do.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
I have seen other documents.
Give one link to one primary document.
Do you honestly believe the 90% plus percent of the population of the white men in the South whom did not own slaves and never did, willing went to fight in a war so a few rich slave owners could keep their slaves?
Yes I do. Shelby Foote thought so too. You going to argue with his assessment?
They went to war because their “betters” told they had to, just as the poor bastards in the North did.
I linked your requested “one document” in my last two posts, quoted directly from the Commander in Chief of the Invading Army. Abraham Lincoln stated under no unclear terms, THE WAR WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY.
As for Southerners fighting, your quoting a guy who died in 2005 as Irrefutable Proof? Baaaahahahahaha!!!!!
Try reading “The Minutiae of Soldier Life” written by Carlton McCarthy, a private in Cutshaw’s Artillery Battalion, Second Corps, Confederate States Army.
He was F~~~ING THERE. He was a private. He wrote a book. I read it. He didn’t much like the idea of being invaded. Didn’t own any slaves or care two s~~~s one way or another about it.
Do you honestly believe the 90% plus percent of the population of the white men in the South whom did not own slaves and never did, willing went to fight in a war so a few rich slave owners could keep their slaves?
Yes I do. Shelby Foote thought so too. You going to argue with his assessment?
Your lack of understanding of human nature is sad.
They went to war because their “betters” told they had to, just as the poor bastards in the North did.
Those that claimed to be their self-appointed “betters” were the yankees, whom they fought a war with. And the yankees have never forgive the south for daring to fight them, even if the yankees won.
I’m supporting the historical truth,
No. You support claims.
They want to throw it all down Orwell’s memory hole.
That is what you are doing right here.
Many members of this forum have pointed out various reasons why you are incorrect. I pointed out how you views are a strawman argument.
You ignore our facts and you continue to repeat the same tired lie over and over again. Are you trying to convince us, or yourself, because you protest way to much.
I have other matters I need to do today and I do not have time to deal with someone suffering from circular logic.
Let’s see what The President of the United States said about it.
That’s exactly what Lincoln said in his inaugural address. He said much the same thing during the campaign and after the election too.
Sadly, the South didn’t believe him.
Did you notice the date of my document and your quote between foaming at the mouth and chewing the carpet? Did you notice when Lincoln said that and when South Carolina documented their reasons for secession, treason, and war?
Here I’ll make it easier for you:
South Carolina: December 20, 1860
Mississippi: January 9, 1861
Florida: January 10, 1861
Alabama: January 11, 1861
Georgia: January 19, 1861
Louisiana: January 26, 1861
Texas: February 1, 1861Lincoln – who had repeatedly promised not to touch slavery in the states where it already existed – wasn’t even in office yet and seven legislatures had already chosen secession, treason, and war.
Why?
Because Lincoln was talking about revisiting the Dred Scott Decision, that’s why. That’s what the “in the States where it exists” statement meant. The Scott decision not only stripped all free blacks of their US citizenship, it also opened the entire US and it’s territories to slavery by asserting the unalienable “right of property in slaves”.
The War wasn’t started by Men Going Their Own Way (Southerners). They literally just got fed up with the bulls~~~ and walked off.
Walked off with other human beings in chains while whining that other men refused to help them hunt down the human beings who escaped from them. That’s right. One of the states’ rights loving Southern states chief complaints was that free state were invoking states’ rights and refusing to enforce federal fugitive slave laws.
You can go your own way, just don’t ask me to help you track down your victims.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
Walked off with other human beings in chains while whining that other men refused to help them hunt down the human beings who escaped from them. That’s right. One of the states’ rights loving Southern states chief complaints was that free state were invoking states’ rights and refusing to enforce federal fugitive slave laws.
You can go your own way, just don’t ask me to help you track down your victims.
AAAhhh.. There it is. The Moral Indignation!! The not so suddle pass at calling me a RAAAAACIST!! Don’t ask you to help me “track down my victims”?
What the F~~~ bulls~~~ is this? Seriously OldBill, I respect you on every other thread but we aren’t even on the same continent on this argument. Plus, I would never imply that anyone else here was a racist unless they actively stated so.
Let me guess, you hold this kind of moral indignation against every society that ever held slaves 100’s and 1,000’s of years ago, right? Let’s tear down the Sphinx while we’re at it!
No, the REAL reason why SJW’s and apparently OldBill are still foaming at the mouth about the Confederacy is because it’s ranks were filled with “Evil White Males”.
The modern day moral relativism is such bulls~~~. Leave the past in the past. Don’t judge it with SJW “modern” values. Leave the Statues up. Robert E. Lee was a GREAT AMERICAN HERO. There’s a reason why his statue and leadership qualities are upheld to the highest standard at every U.S. Military Academy, to INCLUDE WESTPOINT, to this very day.
Your lack of understanding of human nature is sad.
The only sad thing here is your willful ignorance.
The men at the time, the men who chose secession, treason, and war, said it was about slavery. They left no end of documents saying as much. I’ve given you a link to one, told you where to find others, and you can’t even bring yourself to contemplate everything you were taught was a lie.
You’ve seen through the lies surrounding women, surrounding marriage, surrounding so many other things in our current society, but you cannot or, more accurate, will not do the same here.
You and the other Confederate apologists in this thread somehow take my assertions as a personal attack. As if you yourself somehow voted for secession or took up arms 156 years ago. While that’s understandable given the decades of slander heaped on people and regions by liberal hate groups, here on these forums that shouldn’t matter.
The South is not “evil” and the people who live there are not “evil”. Saying the South fought a war to maintain slavery isn’t an attack on you or anyone currently alive. It’s an historical fact, a fact which needs to be remembered, a fact which shouldn’t be rewritten as the apologists would have, or thrown away as the SJW, Antifa, BLM, and other filth want.
This is out history. We remember it to learn from it.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
AAAhhh.. There it is. The Moral Indignation!! The not so suddle pass at calling me a RAAAAACIST!! Don’t ask you to help me “track down my victims”?
You dial back your umbrage. I was explaining the opinion of the free states at the time, not my own.
You referred to the slave states in present terms as going their own way. I countered with a statement referring to the free states in present terms. Understand?
You are not a racist and I don’t think you are a racist, so you can drop that s~~~ right now. Understood?
The modern day moral relativism is such bulls~~~.
I am in full agreement there. From the first in this thread I have said the monuments should stay.
As I tried to explain to Faust, this isn’t about blame or punishment or any of that s~~~. That’s what the SJWs, Anitfa, BLM, and other filth are all about and it’s dangerous nonsense.
This is about our own history and accepting the truth.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
Well Greg by now you should have some idea of how contentious the subject is. As silly as it seems, many current Americans have a lot of their self worth tied up in a romantic, noble rebels, Lost Cause, notion of the CSA.
For many the Confederacy is all about honorable “knights in grey”, moonshiners outrunning “revenuers”, and the Duke Boys outwitting Boss Hogg instead of an army which massacred black POWs at Fort Pillow and captured free blacks during the invasion of Pennsylvania to sell south into slavery.
The actual history is rather messy, just as history always is.
The best analogy I can think of for you is your own Civil War with the Cavaliers and Roundheads. The first few times I visited the UK I was surprised to see the Cavaliers – the side fighting for an absolute monarchy – being romanticized and somehow thought of as the “better” side. Granted the Roundheads were a collection of religious fanatics and their victory led to Cromwell’s Commonwealth but it also established the supremacy of the elected government over a hereditary monarch.
Like the Cavaliers, the CSA is romanticized in most peoples’ perception. In fact, the Confederate apologists during and after the war even borrowed the term “cavalier” to refer to certain certain officers and units.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
What this thread goes to show is that The Civil War cannot be explained in a simple paragraph. It was as nuanced and complicated as the beginning of World War 1, and even those with Doctorates still argue about it’s origins.
I’m surprised we didn’t get into Fort Sumpter, Oh Man I could go on for HOURS about what happened there.
The current educational system paints a fallacy, ripe with virtue signalling and dumbed down logic. It very vividly creates “Good guys” (the North) and “Bad Guys” (The South). This is exactly why we have the movement to vandalize the statues of of Robert E. Lee, a man who Freed his own inherited slaves on his own volition, without provocation.
Southerners have every right to be proud of their heritage and history. They fought to keep an invading army out of their homes. They fought for “no taxation without representation” just as our forefathers did. About 2% owned slaves, which was the worldwide norm for anyone of wealth at the time.
I’d like to end my historical rant by pointing out: Robert E. Lee freed more slaves than any of the SJW’s stomping on his statue pretending to be “freedom fighters”. They are vandals, nothing more.
What this thread goes to show is that The Civil War cannot be explained in a simple paragraph. It was as nuanced and complicated as the beginning of World War 1, and even those with Doctorates still argue about it’s origins.
Simply more excuses.
Once again, the men who chose secession, treason, and war trumpeted to the world their reasons for doing so and you can read their own words today.
They repeatedly said in 1860 and 1861 in their ordinances and proclamations of secession that the reason was slavery.
When you say it wasn’t slavery, you are calling them liars and the words they put down for posterity false.
What men in the present think caused the Civil War does not matter. All that matters is what the men who started the Civil War thought and their thoughts are yours to read if you aren’t afraid of the truth.
While there were a number of factors which created and increased the antagonism between the slave and free states, the cause of the war was slavery. Live with it.
Tariffs have already been mentioned in this thread. They’re just another of the old excuses. The South Carolina legislature threatened secession over tariffs while Andrew Jackson was President. When Old Hickory promised to personally lead an army south and hang every damn one of them, the South Carolina legislature changed their minds. They knew Jackson and knew he kept his promises so they caved in.
In 1860, James Buchanan was President. A f~~~~~ whose lover had been a senator from Alabama before being elected Vice President and dying of TB less than 2 months later, “Aunt Fancy” Buchanan did nothing through out the latter half of the 1850s when the USSC Dred Scott decision opened all states up to slavery, when the Panic of ’57 hit, when “Bleeding Kansas” occurred, or when seven states seceded before he even left office.
Under a real or even mediocre president, secession never would have occurred. Under a ill-regarded f~~~~~ everyone had been ignoring since his election, anything could happen.
Anything did happen and it did in defense of slavery.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
Anonymous1The War wasn’t started by Men Going Their Own Way (Southerners). They literally just got fed up with the bulls~~~ and walked off.
The WAR was started by the INVASION. The INVASION that was conducted as per Abraham Lincolns Orders,
Thats right! The States had the Right to Secede from the Union. The States had the Right to walk away from a bad deal and go their own way. State Sovereignty vs Imperial Conquest. Lincoln was a Communist, and like all communists they will pretend to be for workers rights, but really they are the biggest killers of all. A Scorched earth policy that even Stalin would be proud of.
You can listen to someone, who was actually there.
Anonymous1Karl Marx Letter to Lincoln:
Written: by Marx between November 22 & 29, 1864
First Published: The Bee-Hive Newspaper, No. 169, November 7, 1865;
Transcription/Markup: Zodiac/Brian Baggins;
Online Version: Marx & Engels Internet Archive (marxists.org) 2000.Sir:
We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to the Slave Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to Slavery.
From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class. The contest for the territories which opened the dire epopee, was it not to decide whether the virgin soil of immense tracts should be wedded to the labor of the emigrant or prostituted by the tramp of the slave driver?
When an oligarchy of 300,000 slaveholders dared to inscribe, for the first time in the annals of the world, “slavery” on the banner of Armed Revolt, when on the very spots where hardly a century ago the idea of one great Democratic Republic had first sprung up, whence the first Declaration of the Rights of Man was issued, and the first impulse given to the European revolution of the eighteenth century; when on those very spots counterrevolution, with systematic thoroughness, gloried in rescinding “the ideas entertained at the time of the formation of the old constitution”, and maintained slavery to be “a beneficent institution”, indeed, the old solution of the great problem of “the relation of capital to labor”, and cynically proclaimed property in man “the cornerstone of the new edifice” — then the working classes of Europe understood at once, even before the fanatic partisanship of the upper classes for the Confederate gentry had given its dismal warning, that the slaveholders’ rebellion was to sound the tocsin for a general holy crusade of property against labor, and that for the men of labor, with their hopes for the future, even their past conquests were at stake in that tremendous conflict on the other side of the Atlantic. Everywhere they bore therefore patiently the hardships imposed upon them by the cotton crisis, opposed enthusiastically the proslavery intervention of their betters — and, from most parts of Europe, contributed their quota of blood to the good cause.
While the workingmen, the true political powers of the North, allowed slavery to defile their own republic, while before the Negro, mastered and sold without his concurrence, they boasted it the highest prerogative of the white-skinned laborer to sell himself and choose his own master, they were unable to attain the true freedom of labor, or to support their European brethren in their struggle for emancipation; but this barrier to progress has been swept off by the red sea of civil war.
The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American Antislavery War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world.
Signed on behalf of the International Workingmen’s Association, the Central Council:
states rights was the primary reason for the civil war.
slavery was a bonus to an elite few in the south.
the north wanted a piece of the action..$$$
and went to war to get it.
slavery was ages old..
still practiced today in egypt and parts of the world there..
terrible thing.
white men had a mere fraction of slaves..
the word slave comes from “slavic’..
east european.
columbus color coded slavery as the west knew it.
..
tear down those statues..
erase history and we will REPEAT it.antifa are globalist funded FOOLS.
There goes OldBill… Have to get the last word in using circular arguments you’ve already made.
You are just drowning in feel good, SJW drivel, aren’t you? Liberals have Romanticized the North to be the Pinnacle of Social Justice. You know there were slaves in the north, even recently before the Civil War, right? Oh, many were white Irishmen, so that doesn’t count to SJW groupthink.
The smug, virtue signaling attitude pretending like the North was the “white knight” coming down south to “Saaaave the poor black man” is SUCH BULLS~~~. That was a narrative, a story, a spin piece that was used towards the very end of the war. I won’t bother quoting Lincoln stating this a third time.
The North committed ungodly atrocities against it’s own countrymen and chose to burn the South to the ground rather than just negotiate a deal. It is this brainwashed thinking that welcomes in Orwell’s 1984.
You’ve clearly stated how you feel about opposition to Big Government: To Peacefully walk away in good terms as they did with President Buchannan is to be considered TREASON and warrants death and destruction in your line of thinking.
The South WALKED AWAY. That’s it. They didn’t start the war, they didn’t commit an act of treason, they were Men who saw they were getting shafted by their less productive northern counterparts.
The reason why the war drug on for so long is because the North got their asses beat, PUBLICLY, in the first battle of bull run. It was a total disaster and a complete embarrassment for the government. They could not allow this “rabble” to defeat the “Great Union Army” so they drug it out.
That battle was of course fought on SOUTHERN ground, because afterall, it was INVADED.
It was Lincoln who chose Invasion and War against his own countrymen, a man who played politics and chose to run as a third party candidate so he wouldn’t need any votes from the South.
For anyone that sticks their noses up at ancestors who owned slaves 100’s of years ago, pretending like your floating on some moral high ground, I guarantee you this:
100 years from now, mankind will be spitting on our graves for driving around in gas guzzlers. The fact that we willingly drive around emitting carbon emissions and “polluting the environment for future generations” will be a Cardinal Sin. Nevermind that right now, that’s the norm. Right now, there’s no real affordable alternative. It doesn’t f~~~ing matter, future SJW’s will consider You, I and the rest of us f~~~ing DEMONS for burning fossil fuels.
What men in the present think caused the Civil War does not matter. All that matters is what the men who started the Civil War thought and their thoughts are yours to read if you aren’t afraid of the truth
Well said.
Karl Marx Letter to Lincoln
The King of Siam wrote to Lincoln too, which means old Abe was a Buddhist, right?
Again, I’ll simply say that what men in the present think caused the Civil War does not matter. All that matters is what the men who started the Civil War thought and their thoughts are yours to read if you aren’t afraid of the truth.
I’m not picking sides, I’m saying not one side was more “moral” than the other, I’m not impugning ancestors, and I’m not insulting an entire region of the US.
I asking you to read what the men at the time wrote. and stop repeating what was claimed afterward.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
MGTOW TIMEOUT:
We’ve just been on a daylong heated discussion about the finer points of what started the Civil War. The reasons, the morality, the post-war Romanticism on both sides. We’ve got quotes from historical documents, links to them for accuracy, and numerous authors and books cited. We’ve been going round and around getting into details about Presidents, Governors and Generals.
Gentlemen, this conversation could NEVER happen when women are present. They would f~~~ it up. They would ruin it. You can’t get this s~~~ anywhere else. Not the Civil War specifically, but good dialogue between Men is becoming ever more rare. I wish we were all discussing this over cigars and whiskey.
From about 1890, surviving Confederates and neo-Confederates started rewriting history in a form of “apologia”. The Lost Cause mythology and state’s rights lies were invented then.
The belief in states rights over federal rights was long before 1890. In fact, it is found in the US Constitution. States had their own armies from the beginning and still do via the National Guards. The CSA was morally wrong on the issue of slavery but were actually abiding by the US Constitution better than the northern USA. The founders believed in a weak central government with no federal army but the states armies would unite if any state was threatened by a foreign power. One can see the Confederate belief in this via the names of their armies, there was no “Confederate Army”. There was the “Army of Virginia”, “Army of Tennessee”, “Army of Georgia” ect… The same goes with Confederate currency, each state printed/minted their own and I have some of them as proof. Following the Constitution is hardly worthy of the charge of treason, the military swears by it today. When General Lee stated that he would side with his home state of Virginia, he was abiding by what the founders had in mind.
Slavery was hardly an issue at all in East Tennessee, where I live. We didn’t couldn’t grow cotton in the mountains and hardly any locals could afford a slave. One will find few plantations in East Tennessee though I know of one smaller place built by a tobacco farmer who had no more than five slaves. In fact, most East Tennesseans sympathized with the north but East Tennessee was outvoted by west and middle Tennessee to secede. Northern sympathy continued until the carpetbaggers came and many locals lost their rights after the war. Returning Confederate soldiers had fewer rights than freed slaves and that was a mistake that resulted in the formation of the original KKK in Pulaski, Tennessee. History is written by the winners (not the losers) and the truth is often forgotten.
The CSA was morally wrong…
Once again, this is not about morals, this is not about whether states had or have a right to secede, and this not about the Founders’ intentions.
This is about what the men who voted for secession, treason, and war said their reasons were in 1860 and 1861 versus what many of those men claimed after the fact many others still claim after the fact.
I’ll repeat this for a THIRD time now. What men in the present think caused the Civil War does not matter. What men after the war thought does not matter. All that matters is what the men who started the Civil War thought and their thoughts are yours to read if you aren’t afraid of the truth.
Read what the men at the time wrote. Anything after that time is either commentary or apologia.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
OldBill: Just to let you know, I added to my origional post.
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