The Premise

Topic by narwhal

Narwhal

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This topic contains 5 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Narwhal  narwhal 2 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #683392
    Narwhal
    narwhal
    Participant

    Maybe not the right forum, but I can’t think of a better one.

    I’ve noticed something in common with almost every disagreement/discussion I’ve had lately. The debate is pretty much pointless, as I don’t even agree with the basic premise of the debate. The premise the basic fact that everyone is supposed to accept and take for granted, that which is assumed to be true. That’s supposed to be the common ground, foundation, we share that both parties in the debate can build their argument on.

    So I don’t agree with the foundation, but it’s really deeper than seeing a crack in a foundation. I don’t think the ground is stable enough to consider a foundation, or that it’s even the right climate to build a house. Really, that a house needs to be built anywhere. I’m so far back on issues and questions before the foundation is established that there seems to be little point of even debating the foundation…the premise.

    Take taxes for example. In the US political world right now, income taxes are a hot topic. The question seems to be what is the fair percentage of income tax collected for differing incomes. The premise being that income is tax is right and fair to begin with, which I do not accept. I don’t see why tax is tied to income in any way since a citizen’s use of government resources is not tied to their income (it is really, just inverted). I question why government should be providing the services it provides, creating a need for income tax. Beyond that, I question whether income tax is really even that important in terms of identifying the actual issues in the US right now. In that regard I don’t care about income taxes if other issues, issues not even on the radar are not discussed.

    I see the same at work. There are topics that are up for discussion on how to design a new process in such, but I do not accept the basic assumptions of the process, nor get anyone to consider digging deeper to the root of real issues. We aren’t fixing anything, we are just rearranging chairs.

    The same goes with gender relations. The issues in debate today are based on premises that I don’t accept. The premise is never up for debate, so there is no point.

    In fact in terms of politics and gender relations, it almost appears that the debate strategy is in tricking the opponent into accepting the premise by default. Take equal pay. They debate is staged to answer the question of how to get women to be paid more. The premise being that they don’t currently get paid equally and they deserve to be so. But you aren’t supposed to question the premise because we are supposed to already be passed that and accepted for truth. No one will consider whether the foundation is solid or not. So I say there is no point in participating in the debate because the results are irrelevant and pointless to me. But that’s just fine with them….because the really don’t care either. All they really wanted was acceptance of the premise without question.

    This is happening with Trump. His attackers are throwing out that what they declare as proper moral behavior is more important than any policy. We are to only debate Trump’s tweets and whether or not they are racist or sexist and never consider whether we accept on whether it matters to begin with. I don’t see it as material, so I see no point in considering the debate.

    I cannot decide on whether it makes sense to continual question the premises, the foundations that we are built upon, or if it is better to simply reject, to not participate and go build a house on the foundations that actually makes sense. It seems the latter is the sane approach.

    Ok. Then do it.

    #683573
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1417

    YES, the debate is only over WHO should suffer the burden of taxation, NEVER over whether the Leviathan State is moral or promotes the development of the INDIVIDUAL. The media is s~~~, fake news on both the Right and the Left. Both parties LOVE Big Government.

    No MAINSTREAM politician or political parties, promote personal responsibility, freedom, and individualism.

    Stories about tax policy, conveniently fail to ask HOW we got by WITHOUT an income tax only a century ago. They fail to note government now comprises 40% of Economic Output. I always mention this in political conversation. Then I ask if that is what they consider a free country.

    Trump’s tweets are merely entertaining. They torque off progressives, but achieve no policy objectives.

    #683925
    Narwhal
    narwhal
    Participant

    I also find all the ethics discussions to be completely irrelevant. Well, it’s relevant, but not way down on the priority list. I really don’t care much about what a politician does in their private life, even if it’s illegal, in comparison to their principles of governing. When given the choice between a man who has been accused of sexually harassing women in past but will vote for the laws I want passed (or more likely to), and a woman who is squeaky clean but stands for everything I disagree with….there is an obvious chose. I reject the idea that I must accept and agree with everything a man says or does, or completely disagree. I also reject the idea that society sets my values and determines what should and should not matter to me.

    Ok. Then do it.

    #684159
    Ghost
    ghost
    Participant

    I know what you mean, narwhal. It’s frustrating.

    #684604
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1417

    Narwal: An interesting question, is whether voters’ prurient interest in sex scandals tells us more about the ELECTORATE or the politicians?

    Take Bill Clinton. I disliked the cattle futures scandals, Rose Law Firm scandals, etc, more than his adulterous affairs. Everybody knew his was a marriage of convenience. Yet the opposition was determined to impeach him for it—- Yes, I know it was for lying under oath, but it was either that or say he was an adulterer. Now I very much disliked Clinton proposals like socialized medicine, and liked his welfare reforms. But it would be better if the debate moved to policy from personality, and also, away from the politics of personal destruction.

    The media does not encourage critical thinking.

    Look at all the stories about ‘income inequality’.

    Where are the stories about ‘effort inequality’ or ‘total taxes paid’ inequality?

    After I am done asking colleagues if they consider government spending 40% of economic output a free country, I then ask them how high it must go until they do NOT consider it a free economy. This is an interesting question to pose to people.

    #685197
    Narwhal
    narwhal
    Participant

    I agree Frank. Most of the conversations are not about anything important, and if they are, the debate is never in the right place.

    As for the sex scandals, I am disappointed that Franken is resigning. I don’t like the guy, but what he’s accussed of has nothing to do with his ability to govern. Besides, it’s been strategically done as a means of trying to take down Trump and Moore. We made our guy go down now you have to take down yours!

    No.

    Ok. Then do it.

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