Relationship and MGTOW – Compatible or not?

[KalesajiParticipant 5]

Hello Guys out there,

I really like the way you present your lifestyle choices on the internet and how you finally say the unspeakable. What I don’t understand however is, how is it impossible to have a relationship and go your own way? Hit me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that these two lifestyle choices don’t go together. Has anyone of you a girlfriend on regular basis? I understand that the goal is, to prevent woman from ruling about the life of a man. But is it impossible to find a girl, that does support that?

For me, a good girlfriend would be independent. Someone you can rely on to, but also someone that does not need you in any way. Basicly the definition of independent. I refuse to belive, that there are no girls out there that share this mindset. But what I would like to question is, wether one of you has ever found a girlfriend that admited this kind of lifestyle.

In my future, I would like to lead a life rather different from the one my father is living righ now. He is bringing home the bacon, but still his abilities are highly limited on what he can do for his own good. He always wanted to have an old car, and he could surely afford one. My mother simply  doesn’t allow it. I was slapped when I was young for everything I did wrong. My sister was never even shouted at. And my mother isn’t a feminist. That is the most important aspect. I always wondered, why my dad, which is the most inspiring person I know would still stay with someone like my mother. His sister has warned him about her, and she was right. My Grandma even said that she was wierd and somewhat controlling all the time and that she blew of her boyfriend all of a sudden. I now do understand, why that happened. These men where making decisions beyond her controll. I always thought, my father would stay with my mother because he loves her. By now I know, that he only loved her and now simply has no other choice then living the way he does.

I would like to know your oppinons towards this topic. If someone got advice for me, let me know. I do not want to end up like my father. I want to find a girl like I described above. Do you guys think these kinds of girls exist? Let me know down below.

Greetings,
Kalesaji

[flamesabersParticipant 55]

Hello Kalesaji.

Before hearing the call of MGTOW I had the same mentality of what a good girlfriend would be. However, I never did find a female that behaved like this. It’s quite a quandary because I suspect such women probably avoid relationships altogether because they have no need to have one. It’s like the contradiction with the type of customer credit card companies want. Obviously creditors don’t want any of their customers to be delinquent on payments, but they also won’t make as much money if all of their customers always paid the outstanding balance in full each month.

Even if you could find such a woman, how would you convince her to get into a relationship with you?

[VileNordParticipant 766]

I second @flamesabers .

I do also identify with the yearning for a compatible female companion (to a degree). There is no reason why you cannot date and prescribe to the MGTOW philosophy at the same time. But now that you have seen examples of how women really behave and you have a better understanding of how women think, the harsh reality of dating western women will not be easy to ignore. Contrary to popular MGTOW myth, there are women out there who wish for a life just as the one you described above. There are also albino ravens, but good luck seeing one during your lifetime.

Lust for comfort suffocates the soul

[JollyMisanthropeParticipant 3356]

If you keep your bulls~~~ radar working and know when to cut ties and call it quits then I don’t see why you can’t date.

The Children of Doom... Doom's Children. They told my lord the way to the Mountain of Power. They told him to throw down his sword and return to the Earth... Ha! Time enough for the Earth in the grave.

[…Spectator 1165]

And there are also unicorns that will love you forever.

[RoyDalParticipant]

What I don’t understand however is, how is it impossible to have a relationship and go your own way?

Been there, got burned; tried again, got burned again; and again, etc — eventually learned my lesson and took up less expensive hobbies.

Society asks MGTOWs: Why are you not making more tax-slaves?

[…Spectator 1165]

RoyDal: The size of the expense is the biggest issue. If they would just pay to make themselves worthy of our time, we could all save at least 70K a year man.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

For me, a good girlfriend would be independent. Someone you can rely on to, but also someone that does not need you in any way. Basicly the definition of independent. I refuse to belive, that there are no girls out there that share this mindset. But what I would like to question is, wether one of you has ever found a girlfriend that admited this kind of lifestyle.

That’s a fantasy. Who would ever not want to be needed? I never understand the type of women who go on a DATING website and say “i don’t need a man” right in their dating profile. That’s absurd and the wrong place to say that. She should keep that thought to herself. Too many women project this FARCE as if being totally independent is the image they want to portray when seeking a man. These women are completely full of s~~~.

Who wants to be TOLD they are not needed by someone they never met?
OK fine f~~~ you, I don’t need you either.

I don’t know why women are so hell bent on trying to PROVE something like that – to people they have never even met!

Encouraging independence in women is a good thing in a relationship. Always let her know she can LEAVE. There’s the door if she doesn’t like something. But giving her the freedom to leave also says something about the staying power of the relationship. When you know she can LEAVE (and she remains anyway) every day you spend with her is a sign that she wants to be there.It doesn’t even have to be talked about. She is not there out of some sense of obligation or resent…. or because she signed a contract. She is there because she wants to be, and she can leave when she wants to as well. That’s encouraging independence in women.

You want to know that she is there because she wants to be.
It’s a nice feeling to know she can leave any time but she chooses to stay and keep coming back.
In fact, it’s the ultimate compliment.

Now reverse the sexes and watch what happens. You’re walking down the street with her and you notice other women. Why doesn’t a woman take this as a compliment when you continue to go home with her? She should be THRILLED you look at other women but keep coming back to her. But what does a woman do? She freaks out, ruins a perfectly fine day, and attacks you for LOOKING at other chicks. As if she should be the ONLY woman on the f~~~ing planet. That’s not independence, that’s a nightmare.

An “independent” woman who knows herself would be perfectly OK with you looking at other women. She would be OK with you talking to them, calling them, and even going out with them! But women who say they are “independent” are some of the most needy, controlling broads around. Who just texted you? Why did you retweet her? Why did you “like” her picture? Do you think she is prettier than me? Then you answer her and all hell breaks loose. I have never known a woman who is truly “independent”. Every single one of them behave like the ultimate control freaks, like you are “cheating” when you LOOK at another chick.

Don’t tell me that LIE that you “don’t need a man” when you are so f~~~ing controlling and insecure that you won’t permit him to leave the house without getting permission from you. Who are they trying to kid?

If you don’t need a man…. why do you need me to tell you you’re beautiful?
If you don’t need a man…. why do you expect met tell you your ass doesn’t look fat in those pants?
If you don’t need a man…. why do you give me grief when I don’t text you back within 5 minutes?
If you don’t need a man…. why do you expect to be paid to f~~~ off?

Women need to be honest with themselves before they start pretending.
I got sick and tired of this “i don’t need a man” / “I’m independent” horses~~~ from women.

The “independent” female is the FIRST one to hold her hand out for alimony.
/video/mra-marc-rudov-schools-annoying-feminazi/

She’s not fooling anyone either.

Women are such needy creatures when you tell her to GO AWAY because you don’t want her around, she will have a problem with it and refuse to leave. It’s remarkable. Try it! The same bitch who said “I don’t need a man” will have a BIG problem when you say “I don’t need you. Please leave. Maybe I’ll call you tomorrow.”

I have never met a woman who was OK with me saying “I don’t need you.”
But they say “I don’t need a man” as if this should be some positive asset and attractive quality.

If you ever meet a truly “independent” female, tell me how you did it.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

I believe that females are simply incapable of fairly trading value for value.

“I give you my excess time, attention and energy and you give me yours and we can both have something that we otherwise could not.” is the basic premise of the business, friendship and romantic partnership. Even if you *could* find a female who recognized her value and was willing and able to trade it to you fairly for your own, she would not be able to do so for long.

Females are optimizers (hypergamy) and can not be satisfied with a fair trade… they have to either find a more advantageous deal from someone else or figure out some way to manipulate you into giving up more than you are receiving (typically called “compromise” and “commitment” which they demand from you but never offer in return).

If you’ve ever studied Game Theory, you’ll recognize my strategy in life… to initiate interactions, always play fair and bail at the first sign that I’m being cheated. I believe this to be an optimal strategy for fair and successful interaction with other people. I may not always win, but I never lose more than one round with any given player and I’m always ready to move on to a new interaction.

Females, as I said above, do not think this way… and you simply can’t trade fairly with someone whose strategy is to loss lead, lull you into a sense of security and then take advantage of you while trying to convince you that it’s your fault… particularly when she’s got the entire weight of the world’s social pressure backing her up.

[TheNinjaUWannaH8Participant 386]

@Docfenderson..You Nailed It.

I believe that females are simply incapable of fairly trading value for value.

“I give you my excess time, attention and energy and you give me yours and we can both have something that we otherwise could not.” is the basic premise of the business, friendship and romantic partnership. Even if you *could* find a female who recognized her value and was willing and able to trade it to you fairly for your own, she would not be able to do so for long.

Females are optimizers (hypergamy) and can not be satisfied with a fair trade… they have to either find a more advantageous deal from someone else or figure out some way to manipulate you into giving up more than you are receiving (typically called “compromise” and “commitment” which they demand from you but never offer in return).

For this reason, this is why it is so difficult to have a Girlfriend or long term Relationship with modern, westernized/Post-3rd World Women.

Also, @Key Master is on point AGAIN as always:

Don’t tell me that LIE that you “don’t need a man” when you are so f~~~ing controlling and insecure that you won’t permit him to leave the house without getting permission from you…If you don’t need a man…. why do you need me to tell you you’re beautiful?

Women always try to say that they are Independent.

Financially?  Nowdays…Sorta No.  The Corporate and Executive types making the Big Bucks want to stash their doe and live off yours.

Emotionally?  Fruck No!!!

Dependent as Hell!  They are in constant need of re-validation and reassurance from Men in their lives.  Rather than working on their emotional intelligence (i.e. learning to be emotional more secured within themselves), they go batshiet crazy worrying about how they measure up to other women and remain Emotionally Ridiculous.

Ridiculous as F~~~.

[BrainPilotParticipant 7640]

Can you be mgtow and still date? I’d explain it this way: If you take an honest mathematical look at what women expect from the relationship and what you can expect, along with what each of you is bringing to the table, you then have a true cost-benefit analysis. Since all healthy relationships are voluntary, and all volunteers have to have a reason to volunteer, having a clear understanding of what both parties offer and expect when they enter a relationship seems to be a pretty good place to start building a healthy relationship. If you try to have this conversation with the vast majority of women, they will likely get p~~~ed off and accuse you of “keeping score” or being “selfish” and “unromantic”. So, you can’t even complete this assessment with them. Most men are easily shut down by these shaming tactics and just accept whatever terms are dictated to them by the women they are trying to be in relationships with. To me, mgtow seems to be the first guys in history to just continue this assessment on their own and decide that the cost-benefit analysis is such that women are not worth what they cost vs what they offer.

I wouldn’t tell you that being mgtow means you can’t date or have a relationship. But if you are considering a relationship with a woman in any developed country, do this cost benefit analysis with (or without) her participation. Make sure you understand exactly what all the costs and risks are when you start. Understand the divorce laws and statistics in your area. Understand the child support laws, the common law marriage laws etc… all the way down to the cover charges and drink prices at the local bars and restaurants are where you are going to be expected to pay. If you expect sex, cooking or housekeeping from this relationship, you should look at what prostitutes, maids and take out food cost if you buy them or hire them out on the open market. If you want kids, find out what surrogates and adoption costs. And decide what it’s worth to have a relationship with those kids every single day, instead of every other weekend. (After deciding what it’s worth to you, see what an insurance company would charge to insure you for that amount in a venture with a failure rate higher than 50%). Since it’s illegal in most states, I won’t advocate prostitution here. But legal or not, the market for it allows for you to know exactly what sex is worth in dollars in your area.

If you find a woman with whom the cost benefit analysis is favorable to you, or even a fair trade, by all means go for it. But pay attention to all the costs, all the benefits, all the prices for each on the open market, and to any changes that come up along the way (6 months cohabitation = marriage in some states, marriage is assumed parenthood and its associated costs to you wether you are the biological father or not…assuming you even get the chance to know for sure if you are the biological father).

Treat this like a business contract. And do not think for a single minute that this is not exactly what it is. Not only is it a business contract, but it is the most complex, highest stakes, highest risk business contract you will ever do in your life. Pay attention. Keep score. Be a good accountant. Its stakes are higher than for any employment contract and higher than for any mortgage you will ever be involved in, and the legal system that backs up and enforces this contract is enormously stacked against you.

If you are considering getting married, then realize that even if you have a pre-nup, they are routinely ignored by that same legal system. So in the case of marriage, you cannot even do a realistic cost benefit analysis because the costs and benefits are going to be decided for you, after the fact, by people who are hostile or indifferent to your interests…who will not inform you of the terms until years after you have already committed and no longer have the ability to refuse them.

If you’re not ready to do this with an individual woman, here’s a parting thought: what if you had back all at one time all the money you ever spent on women? Include the drinks, food, movie tickets, gas to pick them up, cover charges, trips, clothes bought for yourself to go to out to try to meet them, jewelry and other gifts, memberships in gyms and dating sites, even money you spent on hair gel and cologne…all of it down to the last nickel. And, what if you had back all the time you ever spent on women? Phone calls, time spent on movies, dinners, dates, gyms and online dating sites, etc. Include all the overtime you ever worked to earn the money you just accounted for. Last, think of all the benefits you ever got from women. Now ask yourself, if you had back all that time and all that money, would you trade it again for exactly those same benefits that you’ve gotten from women over the same time period? If the cost of all the women you’ve ever known in the aggregate is not worth all the benefits you ever got, then it’s highly likely that the next individual woman you meet is not going to be worth her individual costs either…

Just pay attention to the ALL terms of the relationship being offered to you and decide accordingly…

Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you

[YuriParticipant 185]

Can i be an MGTOW and still date women?

As with many aspects of our life philosophy: this is for you to decide. Remember, it is your going your own way. If you still feel like dating after coming to realize and accept the true nature of women is up to you. I would say it could very much put you at an advantage, like a strategist that has completely figured out his opponent and understands and can predict every single move that he will make.

So the question that remains here is:
Do you truly feel the need to still participate in the dating game?

That is for you to decide.

The right man at the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

[flamesabersParticipant 55]

Since adopting the MGTOW mindset, I’ve felt liberated from the expectation to be in a relationship. No longer is the question “why am I still single?” but rather “why should I date or have the goal of wanting to be in a long-term relationship?”  The other day I heard the son of  one of my co-workers got engaged.  Instead of reflecting negatively on my own marital status, I pitied him for the mess he is likely to encounter in his upcoming marriage.

[KalesajiParticipant 5]

First of all, thanks a lot to all those that have shared experiences and advise with me. I really liked the idea of thinking of a relationship as a contract, I’ll keep that in mind. I might even quote you on that one, really down to the point. My personal experiences are rather limited, I’m 18 and have just gotten my first part time job. Therefore I did not spend much money on woman in the past, I can’t quite recap wether the price was right. In the mean time, I actually found a girl that really is independent. Some of you might know TBBT, her relationship to one of my buddies is pretty much organized as much as Sheldons. I was quite interested in the way he managed to get this kind of strict contract like relationship started and he told me something pretty remarkable:

“If you want her to accept your terms, don’t give her another option. Tell her, she’s not going to find someone better then yourself, tell her she’s to ugly, tell her that she’s not in the position to request from you. Basically be a real dick – treat her as woman treat man.”
I translated this from German the best I could – BTW, I’m German too.

The problem with this approach however is, you really need to be charismatic, otherwise you won’t fool any girl into your arms/bed/life. I’m not that kind of a man, so I have thought about something else. All the usual places to get to know girls like bars, clubs or gyms are based of the skill of charisma. So what I did is, I launched an Internet announce for an e-mail or letter correspondent, since I’m rather good at writing. So I think I’ll try to install the necesary parameters all by writing letters or e-mails. And for the sake of counting the amount of time and money put into “woman projects” I can easily write this approach of as cheap socializing. It did not cost anything and a bit of time I spend on socializing anyways, while it doesn’t quite matter to whom I talk or write anyways. I guess it might work for me.

What do you think about my idea? Is it worth a try? Do you think my buddy may has not told me the full truth and is not quite as much in charge as he tells he is? Give me opinions. I know for sure, that having a lot of opinions on a topic usually helps to enlighten both sides of it, so feel free to contribute your thoughts, even if they are slightly of topic or just refering to someone else.

Cheers,
Kalesaji

PS: If you have any literature or podcasts towards this topic, feel free to post the links to them in here as well.

[BrainPilotParticipant 7640]

A guy in the US did this experiment: He got a membership on an online dating website. He created an ordinary, non-distinct profile for himself and typed in some parameters about the women he was looking for. He made the parameters of the women he was looking for wide enough to get at least 100 matches provided by the website software. Then, he wrote two letters. In the first letter, he was nice. He complemented women on how interesting their profile was and said something nice about their picture. He sent that letter to the first 50 women in the list. He wrote another letter in which he was kind of a dick…basically stating that the pic made them look fat, ugly, or the profile they wrote was either stupid or didn’t seem very interesting and that they should change it by adding or deleting…etc etc Both letters ended with an invitation to meet somewhere.

He sent the first letter to the first group and waited for a week. He got no responses. He sent the second letter to the second group and got something like 40-45 responses the same day. Some thought he was a dick and said so. Some less hostile. Some were hurt, but forgiving etc etc. But from the second group who got the dick letter…he got several women who agreed to meet him.

If you are inclined to use writing skills in a dating site as a way to meet women, I’d be interested in your experiences with it… especially if you would be willing to repeat this experiment. I can’t guess wether German women are as mentally screwed up as women in the US, but it would be interesting to find out. However if you do decide to do this experiment, I would set up the initial test by putting a city in your profile other than the one you actually live in. If the response to the dick letter is not as positive as this guy’s was, you don’t want to be walking around in your own city with 50 German women who really are p~~~ed off and want to get even with you…haha!

Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you

[KeymasterKeymaster]

That was me! Exactly. I talked about it here:

/forums/topic/hello-gents-good-to-see-i-can-find-common-ground-on-online-dating/

LOL! I can’t believe this came full circle back to me! Message in a f~~~ing bottle!!
Where did you hear this? Did you hear it someplace else? Unbelievable!

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[BrainPilotParticipant 7640]

Haha!
That was you? That’s awesome! I just heard about it today from a guy I know. He didn’t say where/how he’d learned about it. He’s older (50s), and happily married for many years so I don’t think he’s a member, but he’s got younger, single sons and grandsons. Likely, he heard about it from other men where he works. My guess is that this is an indication that there are a LOT of people who are visiting your site and seeing your videos who may not be declared members, but may be passing info on to single male friends and relatives. I didn’t ask where he heard about it and didn’t get a lot of the details, but I wanted to go and see if I could find it and learn exactly what his experience had been. The report that women respond to someone treating them like crap better than they respond to someone treating them well did not surprise me at all. That much I had learned on my own very early on…all the while listening to them bitch about how there are no nice guys anymore.

Where did you get the idea to do that? It’s f~~~ing brilliant. If you still have them, I (and probably many other members here) would really be interested in reading what you wrote in your profile and in your initial contact letters, and especially what they wrote in the responses.

Also, did you do this in your own hometown? and did you use your own pic? (Im hoping not)

Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Yes! It was me, But I have probably tossed it around the Manosphere a handful of times and written about it before this website. It was around 2007. A similar concept has been done before and was actually suggested by a PUA David DeAngelo (indirectly – not specifically) with the goal of getting a girl to REPLY.

(no I was never a “PUA” but I am “game aware” to a certain extent. In the name of education and research.)

You don’t want to think about dating or sex with her until you get the first REPLY. It’s just a way to generate a response…. even through something perceived by her as a negative.

It’s also a fantastic way to “s~~~ test” her.

1. You find out with minimal effort if her profile is in fact real.

2. You can find out EVERYTHING you need to know about her by the way she responds.
(Did you send her a nice message before and she didn’t answer? Then why would she respond to a dig before something kind?)
It puts you in the position of disqualifying her before she thinks she can do the same to you.

3. It shows you’re “not like other guys” who kiss her ass

4. You see if she is creative or has a sense of humor. Most do not.
Most of them were hostile to some degree. Only about 10% were LOLs and thought it was funny.

This approach can tell you ALOT about a girl. One little dig (especially if it’s also hilarious) and you can count the paragraphs she responds with. Sit back and let her blab all kinds of transparent s~~~ she wouldn’t give away any other way. The perfect ice-breaker. You plow right throw the bulls~~~ talk to her like a bratty little sister. The only reason I know you’re talking about *ME* is because I did it over 2 days. 50 on one day and 50 the next. Its pretty unlikely another guy would have done exactly 50 of each. I was out sick for 2 days and had nothing better to do, so I conducted this social experiment. It’s very likely those guys read about it here. But it’s the way you wrote about it. I knew you were talking about me. UNCANNY. I’m blown away.

Truly like finding a message in a bottle with my own signature on it.
I will be happy to tell you more of the details and the profile(s) I wrote.

I could do a BIG piece on this because one of our first forays (with my partners and colloquies) into online dating – going back as far as 2002. It was a corner of our business. I actually designed a prototype for date.com. Although I was not part owner or anything like that.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[BrainPilotParticipant 7640]

Oh yeah. The story I heard from my buddy is definitely your story. I have been of a mgtow mindset for decades, but only stumbled onto the mgtow site and the youtube videos within the last few weeks. I have been reading as much as I can since on this site and the links to illimitable men, but hadn’t come across the story until you posted the link above. When I followed the link, I knew it was the same story. There are too many matching details…right down to the 40 something responses on the first day. Please do a big piece on this. Write up the whole thing and do it as fast as you can. Online dating is a dominant force in dating for all single guys (reds and blues) and that attitude you describe is very much alive and well. I could do some stories on my experience as well.

It reminds me of a guy I knew years ago that was of the pua mentality, but almost to the point of being pathological. He told me once that he got blown or laid almost every time he went out to any club, and I immediately called bulls~~~. He’s not that good-looking and I knew he was too tight to be paying for it. So, I challenged him to explain. His explanation: “If I walk into a club and there are 200 women in there and I straight up ask 20 of them for a blow job, 19 of them will call me a pig and tell me to f~~~ off. But one will be drunk, or desperate, or cheating or looking to get even for something that other guy did…etc. and that one will take me to the parking lot and blow me…’. I said, “Maybe, if you don’t mind getting told off and called a pig 19 times a night…I would never set myself up for that much rejection”.

His answer, which I will remember if I live to be 100 was, “I’m not trying to run for mayor, I’m trying to get blown…and when number 20 is blowing me, I don’t really give a s~~~ what the first 19 are thinking…”.

He was right. I was being nice and hoping they would like me and failing. He was being an ass and telling them to blow him and succeeding. Don’t give a woman what they ask for, or what you think they might want. Give them what they respond to. The secret to withstanding the rejection 19 times a night…is to never have given a f~~~ what they thought in the first place. Virtually NO part of his opinion of himself was based on any woman’s opinion of him, and that was very clear to them when he asked.

I still think that guy was a little sociopathic, and have never asked 20 random women in a club for a blow job, but I have little doubt he was correct. Your experience is just further proof of the same mechanism that was in effect in clubs 20 years ago in clubs is in effect today in online dating sites. Please do a big piece on it asap.

Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you

[RevMattParticipant 28]

I think the question shouldn’t be “are relationships compatible with the MGTOW philosophy?” Instead, the question should be “Am I capable of being in a relationship with a woman without compromising my integrity or do I give into every attempt at emotional manipulation?”

I don’t think relationships are the problem. The problem is marriage and raising kids.

[Author]

Posts