Question: was I going over the top?

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

This incident just happened and I’ve been “warned” about my E-mail content. What do you guys think? Was I being an asshole or not?

Facts: As you all know I’m now a gunsmith and FFL dealer so I peruse the various auction sites. Last night I saw the following: Spanish Astra M-900 broomhandle pistol, Nazi contract 1943, all matching parts/numbers including the stock. Mint condition, Price $12,500. In the description the weapon is referred to in a book on such arms down to the page.

Well I looked it over very carefully and did some research. I then E-mailed the seller with the following questions: to wit: Astra stopped making these in 1940 so how was this made in 1943? and all firearms made under nazi contract have nazi proof marks stamped into them–this is common with non-German made weapons used by the Germans, ie, FN, CZ, Random, Astra M-600 etc. This weapon does not have any Nazi proof marks, rather it has only the Spanish proofs where it was made. So what is the explanation?

I did not ask how a war-time pistol could be in mint condition—I left that alone.

So the seller ignores me. I sent another message today asking why I was being ignored AND why I should have to buy the book he referrers to for $175 to get my answers. He is after all the one asking someone to plunk down over 12Gs–on his word that it is what he says it is.With that kind of money involved I didn’t think it was unreasonable to ask my questions…especially as I pointed out that similar firearms (that model, period) sell for about 3K-4K—what makes this one 4 times as expensive?

So rather than answer me the s~~~-head must have reported me to the site manager claiming I was implying that he was dishonest—so I’m in hot water.

What do you guys think? Was I over the top here?

[BlacqueJacqueShellacqueParticipant 6890]

Not one bit. You’re asking questions about goods being sold. Buyer beware. You are trying to be aware. I see no problem. Maybe it’s a giant scam and you’re busting it.

[Anonymous 43]

a legit seller of any commodity would be happy to answer questions, esp for a 12000 thing.

someone with something to hide would be defensive…there is something wrong here…walk away from this deal. year wrong, no proof marks, wrong unlikely condition

pistols like this were a status symbol. there are no unused ones.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/pistols/astra-pistols/astra-model-900-broomhandle-pistol.cfm?gun_id=100810485

there are a couple used pistols on this site for around $2000.

I am ignorant about these things, Pete, but I think you should never buy a pig in a poke…

fwiw Wikipedia said there were 1050 sent to Germany in 1943 from a cancelled order to china made between 38 and 41.

http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com/topic/9761/Astra-900-Broomhandle#.WMtANRE2ypo

*RARE ASTRA 900 BROOMHANDLE NAZI SERIAL RANGE WITH HOLSTER/STOCK.

just looking on the internet here waffenamt marks may not be present, but rather a sn range according to these sites.

ASTRA MODEL 900 BROOMHANDLE PISTOL

same gun as guns intl ad

wow, buyer beware pete

[Joey AlfioParticipant]

It’s not like the price tag was $12.50. You had every right to be cautious.

Δεν υπάρχει τίποτε αδύνατο γι’ αυτόν που θα προσπαθήσει. - Μέγας Αλέξανδρος

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

May 7 you bring up another excellent point which I studiously avoided in my E-mails to the seller. The M-900 is chambered for 7.63 (.30 Luger) which is what with some exceptions in WWI the Mauser manufactured pistols are as well—especially commercial weapons produced in between the wars.

During the war the Germans routinely converted these to 9mm. How do I know? Aside from the research I own a fine 1911, and 1932. both were originally 7.63 BUT were converted to 9mm during the war. The one he is selling is 7.63. Another red flag.

[bladeParticipant]

No f~~~ing way . Sounds like the seller is a con and you have caught him out so to f~~~ you up and slow you down so he can of load it before he is caught out . I think if you explain it to the admin they will be thankful . Can’t see anything wrong with what you said as a professional on the matter . Good job pete even if you don’t buy it you will be saving someone else from been ripped of

THE PLANTATION HAS NOW TURNED INTO THE KILLING FIELDS . WOMAN ARE NOW ROLLING CAMBODIAN STYLE .

[HitmanParticipant]

nah pete..
you covered your ass man.
send a copy of the e-mails to the site in question.
that should flip it on to the sellers lap.
you have every right to protect that kind of investment..
that aint pocket change..

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

Thanks Blade—I don’t have anywhere near that kind of money. (I bought my two for $400 and $300 respectively—is it MY fault the seller didn’t know what they were worth?) I was just trying to keep others from getting ripped off.

Anyway in the pictures he has it sitting on a big nazi flag—who does that? And he claims Astra sent 1000 of these pistols under contract to Germans in France in 1943.

So—3 years after production stops, the Germans buy 1000 pistols of a caliber they really can’t use effectively without converting them…YEAH! SURE. Even the French Ruby pistols made for the Germans have German proofs.

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

OK guys, many thanks I feel better about this now. I just didn’t want to be an asshole.

Just realized something else—my two conversion DO NOT have matching part because to chamber the 9mm a new bolt is installed so if his HAS all matching it means its still chambered for 7.63 and the Germans never converted it…Wish I had thought of that earlier.

You guys ROCK!

[Anonymous 43]

I know there is a red 9 version…9 burned and painted red in the 9mm handle.

ok I did research on this a while back

red 9 to distinguish it from 7.63

red 9 was mauser only…

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/pistols/mauser-pistols/mauser-red-9-military-rework-.cfm?gun_id=100824326

[HitmanParticipant]

PistolPete wrote:

You guys ROCK!

we know..
but it’s nice to hear anyway!!!
you too bro!

[Anonymous 43]

just the little research on the internet, maybe the astra wasn’t converted to 9mm. not sure. someone knows…museum maybe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_firearms_of_Germany#CITEREFWalter2004

astra could fire mauser .30 = 7.63 doesn’t list alternative ammo. there is a reference book at the bottom of the article.

well, ignorance of weaponry aside, the actions of the seller seem a bit off, defensive and suspicious.

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

Exactly the “red 9” was produced in 1916 for the German military to avoid loading confusion. And I agree with you guys. If I were off the mark and this guy legit he would have come back at me…I mean when you own a classic gun you tend to be very proud of it and you can be very defensive too so Yeah this whole thing smells. Good thing I DON’T have 12 Gs to throw down on this!

[Anonymous 42]

You found an obvious forgery and he got caught with his pants down! Happens on eBay all the time!

Buyer beware and keep your hard earned money from becoming someones loot!

I hope the asshole blows his foot off!

[Anonymous 43]

lol pete is looking for the unicorn of guns

unused example of 1 of 1050 of the coolest gun ever created, never used my ass, if I had a broomhandle mauser clone, i’d be shooting every speed limit sign, squirrel and x ring I could find, I’d wear the f~~~er on a big chain around my neck through the lanyard loop. It would be the hood ornament on my Bentley. The hottest girls on the planet would be knocking down my door wanting to play with my gun. yeah, the organic one.

I read an internet article about investing in antique firearms, this gun was one of them. Mauser C96. lol
Investing in guns, gold coins, cars, paintings, all of this stuff is buyer beware.

The only guy who makes money in guns I think is the guy that finds it on the battlefield and sells it to a buddy for $20 back at the barracks. Every time it is bought and sold, the price goes up, not because of demand, but everyone needs a profit.

Pete, for $12,000 that gun had better be perfect, new in box, original holster, case and papers. original factory gun oil, wrapped in paper. It had better come with the guy who this thing was issued to dead or alive, and a note from his mother why he didn’t use the pistol. It had better have Adolph Hitler’s fingerprints on it and a packing slip with his handwriting that this was a weapon received by some depot in Germany in 1943.

[Elric GreenstoneParticipant 1637]

A little late, mirroring what others have said . . .

You were definitely on-target, and not at all over the top. If he’s selling an unusual antique, he should expect to answer questions about it. If he can’t answer the questions, then . . . he’d probably run to the site admin and complain about you while he tries to complete a sale or dump it.

No, he’s a little bitch.

"You can either love women, or understand women. You can't do both. Because once you understand women, you realize that there is really nothing to love."

[BlacqueJacqueShellacqueParticipant 6890]

I don’t know anything about guns. I’ve shot a bb gun, pellet gun, 22, 303, and a 12 gauge shotgun. But when I read:

PistolPete wrote:

especially as I pointed out that similar firearms (that model, period) sell for about 3K-4K—what makes this one 4 times as expensive?

I was suspicious. Then you chimed in:

Anonymous wrote:

Pete, for $12,000 that gun had better be perfect, new in box, original holster, case and papers. original factory gun oil, wrapped in paper. It had better come with the guy who this thing was issued to dead or alive, and a note from his mother why he didn’t use the pistol. It had better have Adolph Hitler’s fingerprints on it and a packing slip with his handwriting that this was a weapon received by some depot in Germany in 1943.

I’m still laughing.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

PistolPete wrote:

What do you guys think? Was I over the top here?

What? NO.

You need a reason to pay $12,500 for an item.
He heeds a reason to ask $12,500 for that item.

Either way, it’s now up to HIM.

A Picasso painting is not worth $100 Million. It’s only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. This gun is an item like that. It’s not worth $12,500 unless a buyer DECIDES that it is. He needs to help you make that decision. Or he can wait until someone else can justify spending that much.

He can’t just decide it’s worth that much. The buyer would have to.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[MuglintarParticipant 1333]

I’m not a weapon expert, but I’m German.
And out of that I’d call that thing out as fake.

1) technology – German technology is always and has been for a very long haul based on metric system (e.g. 9 mm).
The infamous 7.63 – relates to 3 inch (1 inch = (german) 1 Zoll = 2,54 cm (Germans use commata instead of points)), but Germans would then take 3 inch, being 7.62 mm. So there is something fishy about that already. German engineering is known for high standards, because we are very pedantic on things and a mm in weapons technology is huge.

2) historical reason – in 1940 Hitler met General Franco trying to convince him to enter WWII on the side of the “axis powers”-side. General Franco denied this, but a Spanish voluteer devision formed (known as “Blaue Division” (blue devision)) which engaged in the strike against the USSR. By 1943 (!) the allied forces, especially England, were already powerful enough to force Spain to tell these “voluteers” to disband their division. Sidenote: in 1943 Germany suffered one of the fiercest losses during WWII, the “Kettle of Stalingrad”, which resulted in a national Trauma and many experts still claim that to be THE turning point of WWII. So why would a factory in an officially neutral country continue to produce weapons under (expired) license for the loosing side?

3) economic reason – as stated above it does make little sense to produce for the loosing side, which came apparent by 1943. So put yourself into the position of the owner of the weapon factory, he in that situation had two choices, continue an illegal production of a good, where the demand side is shrinking, and risk Spain being overrun by allied forces, which would result in his company being seized and him going to jail, or stop producing the good, of which the prices are free-falling. The latter somehow does make more sense.

4) “waffenamt” – not only would German require the first letter to be capitalised “Waffenamt” (all nouns are capitalised in German), I would expect it to be called “Reichswaffenamt” – as there has been a tendency to indicate “Reichs..” to anything official. So I went to google for the affecting laws, which I found “Reichswaffengesetz” (Law for weapon obsession, trade and manufacturing) of 1938 (http://alex.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/alex?aid=dra&datum=19380004&seite=00000270) Paragraph 34 says the according permits are given by the “Kreispolizeibehörde”, so in such case as claimed the permitting instance would be the “Reichsministerium des Innern” – Ministry of Inner Affairs. While this is an assumption comming from my knowledge as being born and native to this country and it’s culture, I’d say this doesn’t fit.

As said before, I’m neither weapons expert nor lawyer, but that thing just doesn’t feel right.

So where you going over the top? Nope, someone tried to pull something, you didn’t fall for it.

"Him, who delights in solitude, is either a wild beast or a GOD!" - Aristotle (Aristot. Pol. 1.1253a) 1 Hom. Il. 9.63; the passage goes on: ἐστὶν ἐκεῖνος ι ὃς πολέμου ἔραται.

[MagusParticipant 424]

Seems like you caught a thief. Call him on it.

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