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Stargazer 5 years ago.
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These two blog essays by Scott Alexander (not a MGHOW) are very insightful and well-thought expositions of the plight of awkward young men. The first is on nice guys. The second nerds. And how feminists try to justify their own lack of empathy for them. Basically amounting to whenever a man complains about being lonely and frustrated, feminists accuse him of having a “sense of entitlement” to women’s bodies. You’ve seen this sort of thing before. However, these are must reads. Alexander, a practicing psychiatrist, is both self-identified nice guy and nerd.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/
From the first essay:
– I had a patient, let’s call him ‘Henry’ for reasons that are to become clear, who came to hospital after being picked up for police for beating up his fifth wife.
So I asked the obvious question: “What happened to your first four wives?”
“Oh,” said the patient, “Domestic violence issues. Two of them left me. One of them I got put in jail, and she’d moved on once I got out. One I just grew tired of.”
“You’ve beaten up all five of your wives?” I asked in disbelief.
“Yeah,” he said, without sounding very apologetic.
“And why, exactly, were you beating your wife this time?” I asked.
“She was yelling at me, because I was cheating on her with one of my exes.”
“With your ex-wife? One of the ones you beat up?”
“Yeah.”
“So you beat up your wife, she left you, you married someone else, and then she came back and had an affair on the side with you?” I asked him.
“Yeah,” said Henry.
I wish, I wish I wish, that Henry was an isolated case. But he’s interesting more for his anomalously high number of victims than for the particular pattern.
…
When I was younger – and I mean from teeanger hood all the way until about three years ago – I was a nice guy. In fact, I’m still a nice guy at heart, I just happen to mysteriously have picked up girlfriends. And I said the same thing as every other nice guy, which is “I am a nice guy, how come girls don’t like me?”
There seems to be some confusion about this, so let me explain what it means, to everyone, for all time.
It does not mean “I am nice in some important cosmic sense, therefore I am entitled to sex with whomever I want.”
It means: “I am a nicer guy than Henry.”
Or to spell it out very carefully, Henry clearly has no trouble with women. He has been married five times and had multiple extra-marital affairs and pre-marital partners, many of whom were well aware of his past domestic violence convictions and knew exactly what they were getting into. Meanwhile, here I was, twenty-five years old, never been on a date in my life, every time I ask someone out I get laughed at, I’m constantly teased and mocked for being a virgin and a nerd whom no one could ever love, starting to develop a serious neurosis about it.
And here I was, tried my best never to be mean to anyone, gave to charity, pursuing a productive career, worked hard to help all of my friends. I didn’t think I deserved to have the prettiest girl in school prostrate herself at my feet. But I did think I deserved to not be doing worse than Henry.
No, I didn’t know Henry at the time. But everyone knows a Henry. Most people know several. Even three years ago, I knew there were Henry-like people – your abusers, your rapists, your bullies – and it wasn’t hard to notice that none of them seemed to be having the crushing loneliness problem I was suffering from.
And, like my patient Dan, I just wanted to know – how is this fair?
And I made the horrible mistake of asking this question out loud, and that was how I learned about social justice.
Interesting, but what I find ironic about it is that feminists will say this about men, but then they turn around and feel entitled to more money, birth control, special rights, etc just because they are women and their gender has been oppressed in the past. I think there is some justification to a nice guy being upset that woman aren’t giving him the time of day. If he is being a good person and woman are turning him down, but then dating guys who are loser and mean to them to can be annoying because you aren’t the bad guy. However that is why I say never date a woman who dated bad guys in the past, slept around, and never gave nice guys the time of day. Why should she be rewarded with a nice guy who is going to treat her right when she made many horrible choices in the past? If there is anything justice it is a successful man rejecting a woman when she is only interested in him because she is getting older and needs a man to take care of her since her eggs are dying and her looks are starting to go.
One thing I do maintain, for those “nice guys” who want to get out of the friend zone into something more serious, though god knows why they would want to, is to take the risk and just ask the bitch, sorry woman, if she is interested.
that’s it. you are not a nice guy because you don’t want to make her uncomfortable with the question. she is manipulating you anyways, boosting her esteem that she can drag you around on a leash. Don’t think she is not aware that you want more, she knows the dynamic much better than you do. despite that, ask her- and if she says no, then leave and don’t ever go back. not even if she calls you up whining that she misses you.
But better yet, become a MGHOW and self define yourself, without letting society define your masculinity based on being in a relationship or not. Stop seeking to define yourself as a conventional nice guy, and do what you sincerely feel is nice, such as volunteering at an animal shelter. but don’t believe being a doormat for some ungrateful gash makes you a nice guy.
The why-don’t-women-like-nice-guys topic is fascinating. I’ve been pondering it for decades and I’m still not sure what I think about it. As the author of the first article demonstrates, it’s a topic that will never be settled to anyone’s satisfaction, simply because anyone who brings it up is ridiculed.
There is a lot of space between “nice guy” and “serial spousal abuse”.
Nice guy types seem to think that they should get sex just because they’ve never deliberately done anything violent to a woman, as if that’s what women really look for in a sex partner. And yes, I am focusing on sex because the nice guy in the article was talking about wanting sex and not getting it.
My thoughts on the matter:
1) pretending to be a female’s friend as a way to get close enough to her that she will see you as a good sex partner is duplicitous.
2) providing a female with attention and emotional support in hopes of a sexual reward is not only duplicitous but is actually counter productive and belies a deep lack of understanding of what drives female sexual interest.
3) the belief that being nice… a-la treating females with “respect” by protecting them from your own sexual aggression… is how to get sex from a woman is absurd and self defeating.
4) the belief that you should get what you want because you’re good and you deserve it is entitlement wishful thinking at its most unrealistic.
So basically the “nice guy” believes that he should be rewarded with sex for being attentive, supportive and protective toward a female and resents her for not giving him what he wants while pretending to not want it. This is essentially feminized thinking… turn the equation around and imagine a female who believes she should receive attention, support and protection from you without having to ask for it (e.g. you offer her a relationship) because she gives you sex while pretending that she does not want anything “serious”.
This is the female equivalent of the nice guy… a lieing gold digger. She’s not the casual sex friend that she’s pretending to be, she’s angling for a free house and half your stuff. Could you honestly call this kind of girl a mere f~~~ buddy and believe she’s really happy only giving you what you want? Only if you’re totally delusional. So how do you expect the female to believe that you are truly her friend when, in reality, you’re angling for a piece of her ass and she knows it?
The irony here is that gold diggers can succeed because most men are too dumb to realize they’re being had… but most females can see through the nice guy’s ruse and know he wants sex… so she absorbs as much of his time, money and attention as she can without giving it up and then ditches him for the kind of guy who she really wants to have sex with… a man who is aggressive and direct and knows what he wants and isn’t afraid to take the kind of risks that are required to get it.
Wake up, nice guy. You think you’re clever but its really you who is getting played. The next time you see a female you want to have sex with, go make a pass at her. If she doesn’t give you an enthusiastic yes, move on. Then you can at least be honest with yourself, become more attractive to females and possibly get some sex and then maybe choose to be a real friend to someone you’re not trying to trick into getting f~~~ed.
Now wouldn’t THAT be nice!
Doc, you’re right, but I think the topic deserves more attention than it’s being given.
The nice guy types are favorite punching bags because they’re pathetic and nobody cares about them. But maybe we should. Even if only for purely selfish reasons, because the nice-guy demographic is prime for bolstering MGTOW, but instead they usually stray to the white knight side, because they have a need that’s not getting met, and they choose the wrong strategy to meet that need.
I think it’s been said before but I’ll state it again. MGTOW can not be recruited.
We can talk about our experiences and our ideals and share those with people who are looking for change in their lives but I firmly believe that you can not go out and try to preach MGTOW values to someone who is still lying to females and themselves in order to try to get unobtainable pussy.
If you’ve got a Nice Guy friend you feel bad for and you want to play the part of the guru savior, then go ahead and expend your breath trying to get him to see the error of his ways, that’s on you. But this whole “sympathy for the nice guy” shtick doesn’t ring true to me. These men are not victims, they are desperate for sex and they’re willing to lie to themselves and to the female objects of their desire in a vain hope of getting some.
Nice guys put THEMSELVES in the “friend zone” and I’m not going to lead a campaign into that territory to try to convince someone that their anger and resentment toward females is their own doing. That’s a sure way to get myself attacked. Trust me, I know one of these guys and he can get vicious when confronted with his own blue pill stupidity.
In other words, I’m no Morpheus and I don’t want to be. You know some potential Neo who is looking for the red pill, you go proffer it to him. As for me, I’m staying as far away from the machine world as I can. Let them find us and come to us of their own volition, I say.
It’s not like MGTOW values are hidden on frozen mountain tops or anything. They will find and embrace MGTOW when they are ready and not a moment sooner.
I only offered the “MGTOW recruitment” rationale to preempt any argument from selfishness that might come, as I’m sure a lot of guys will say “I don’t care about the nice guys because it’s their problem and not mine (read: all I care about is ME)”.
In reality, we ought to care because they’re fellow human beings in pain. And the pain isn’t usually their fault. The problem is that they were born with an overwhelming evolutionary urge, and didn’t get the proper guidance (as adolescents) that they should have gotten on how to deal with it. There are ways to do better, but they’re never even discussed, because the “victims” are mostly marginalized and nobody else cares enough to speak up on their behalf.
I would not turn away any man who honestly looks to me and asks for help, but nice guys and white knights do not want my help and I will not attempt to force it on them nor will I feel sorry for them for the way they have chosen to see the world.
They are not victims, they are adult men of free will, responsible for their own actions and choices to lie to females and to themselves in the hopes of being granted sex that they are too afraid to ask for directly. They have made their beds and now they must sleep in them… alone.
By the way, do you want another man’s sympathy? Would you feel happy to know that I feel sorry for you for being a self-deluded fool? Will you accept my help in showing you how to get over this delusion? I should think not.
I think a lot of them DO want help. Their methods of coping with their life problems aren’t working, and if they keep doing the same things, it’s only because they haven’t come up with anything better. MGTOW may sometimes be a good option for guys like that.
And I’m not talking about “recruiting”, in the conventional sense. I don’t think MGTOWs should go out and find these people and say “hey, Mr. Nice Guy, I think you’d like MGTOW, go check it out”. Instead, MGTOWs should consider these guys as a natural potential constituency (the same way they would consider, say, men who have been through bad divorces), and act accordingly. Then, when those guys DO find MGTOW, whenever and however that happens, they will feel like they are among fellow travelers…and not called manginas and slandered in the same way that feminists slander them.
BTW, you keep saying that nice guys “lie to females”, what do you mean by that?
MGTOWs should consider these guys as a natural potential constituency
This is precisely where I think your argument falls down. I can’t speak for all MGTOW, of course, but I don’t believe MGTOW is a movement that is looking to identify and reach out to “new members” or build any sort of constituency. It’s not about proselytizing or witnessing or feeling sorry for anyone for whatever they’re going through. If nice guys want a new model for relating to females and they come across MGTOW values, they’re free to come hang out, read what we have to say and talk about their own experiences, same as divorced guys and everyone else.
I keep saying they lie to females and to themselves and I deride their values (not them as individual people, BIG difference!) and use the phrase “Nice Guy” as a slur because of what I believe which is as follows:
There are five basic types of men when it comes to using masculine power. I define masculine power (as opposed to feminine power) as being aggression and forced used in such a was as to produce value. The closest common conception I can offer you is “creative destruction”. Look that up if you need more depth on it. I define female power, by the way, as “social organization”. For short hand, let’s call them “force” and “influence” and, assuming they can both be used to either produce or destroy value, they are equal and complimentary and they inform every interaction that men and women have.
Right, so the five types of men. Use whatever terms you prefer, these are the ones I use:
1) The “Good Man” – uses masculine power to create value for himself AND others simultaneously. This is the “fair exchange of values” that I like to talk about and it’s similar to the Objectivist ideology of John Galt, for reference. The Good Man uses his power to create things that he wants and that other people want and then trades them fairly with other people, producing net positive value for both.
2) The “Douchebag” – uses masculine power to create value for himself AT THE COST of others. This is the guy who takes what he wants with no intention or concern for how it effects others. This is the kind of guy who rufies women at clubs or builds schools with substandard materials. Creates value for himself while destroying it for others… net neutral.
3) The “Asshole” – uses masculine power to destroy value for himself AND others. This guy has no clue or plan for the use of his power and does himself just as much damage as he does to other people. He will get drunk and crash his car into someone’s house and not even care. Net loss of value.
4) The “Nice Guy” – uses masculine power to produce value for others but NOT for himself. This is the kind of guy who believes that being passive and supportive is all he needs to do to succeed and that simply treating a female with deference and respect will earn him sexual access to her… he busts his ass to give a female everything she asks for and never gets what he really wants. Net neutral.
5) The “White Knight” – uses masculine power to destroy value for himself AND for others. This is the guy who has such a warped view of the value of females that he treats her like she’s a helpless child and deliberately interrupts others who may be offering her values that she desires. He doesn’t get what he wants and he actively presents others from getting what they want as well, denying people access to value across the board. Net negative.
Anyone in the Nice Guy or White Knight category is lying to females because they’re pretending to be just good people (as compared to the other guys who obviously don’t respect her and just want to f~~~ her) but have ulterior motives for doing so… i.e. they don’t respect her and just want to f~~~ her.
Do you see where I’m coming from?
This is getting bogged down in irrelevancies, so I’ll distill my “argument” down to the basics. Basically there are three questions to be answered.
1. Should we help our fellow man?
2. If #1 is yes, who do we help? (who is “worthy”, if you will)
3. Once we’ve decided who to help, what should be done to help them, if anything?
We haven’t even gotten to #3 since we’ve been stuck on 1 and 2.
This is precisely where I think your argument falls down. I can’t speak for all MGTOW, of course, but I don’t believe MGTOW is a movement that is looking to identify and reach out to “new members” or build any sort of constituency. It’s not about proselytizing or witnessing or feeling sorry for anyone for whatever they’re going through.
But it’s actually irrelevant to my “argument”. I only brought it up in case someone’s answer was “no” to #1, to show that there is something in it for us too. But really, if their answer is “no”, I don’t care to talk to them. Whether MGTOW should have any kind of strategy to spread the message is an interesting topic in its own right, but it’s not what I really wanted to discuss here.
Question #2 is the heart of the matter at hand. I’ve identified a group that I think is worthy of help, if there were a way to help them. Feminists slander this group in an attempt to demonstrate that they’re not worthy of help, or sympathy, or understanding (as seen in the OP links). Doc, a lot of what you’ve said echoes what the feminists say. But it may just be a matter of us talking about two different things. It may be the group you’re talking about is simply a small subset of the group I’m talking about.
My definition of Nice Guys is this:
1. They are generally unattractive to women.
2. They try to compensate for their unattractiveness by being “nice”.
3. This strategy is mostly ineffective.
4. The guy in question feels frustration about this state of affairs, and it has significant negative effects upon his life.
You must be working from a much narrower definition if you include qualities such as:
they don’t respect her and just want to f~~~ her
Maybe a few of them, but I think most of the nice guys in my definition also want relationships, love, commitment, etc.
Anyone in the Nice Guy or White Knight category is lying to females because they’re pretending to be
just good peopleWrong. “Lying” is a word with a very specific meaning. It means to say something that you know is false. I’m sure some nice guys lie, but I’m also sure that a lot of others don’t. Nice Guys don’t necessarily lie any more than any other guys do. A lot of them are good people. Just because they’re hoping to benefit themselves as well as the object of their niceness doesn’t make them bad, it makes them human.
The only universal nice guy behavior that might be considered dishonest is that they do nice things for others in hope of some payoff for themselves. That’s not “lying”. And it’s not even that dishonest, since pretty much everyone does it at one time or another, and anyone who’s not astonishingly naive knows that it’s happening. Hell, even animals do it. Ever have a pet who acted all lovey-dovey when they were hungry and their dish was empty? I have. If a social behavior that’s so universal that even animals do it is deemed so morally repugnant that it disqualifies someone from being treated with basic human decency…well, I have to conclude that the person passing judgment just doesn’t want to help anyone, and will grasp at any excuse to justify not helping.
The nice guy’s problem is that he has needs that he can’t satisfy, and he makes himself more pathetic in his failed attempts to meet those needs. Some of these guys can’t be helped, and a few (Doc’s subset) don’t deserve help. But some can be helped, want help, and are worthy of help. And I’d like to talk about ways to help them, but apparently I’m the only one here who’s interested, so I guess I’ll just have to keep my ideas to myself.
1) We should help those who seek our help.
2) Any and only those who, in good faith, specifically ask for our help.
3) That is up to the individuals in question on a case by case basis.
Proactively selecting, strategizing and attempting to render aid and assistance to people who do not want it or feel they need it is essentially evangelizing and missionary work, both of which I find arrogant, distasteful and pointless.
And that’s pretty much the last word I have on this topic. From this point on I will only be repeating myself… which I also find arrogant, distasteful and pointless.
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