I should keep MGTOW to myself , Now I see why

[EtrangereParticipant 706]

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127749

I’m not sure that the thread can be viewed unless signed up for it , but I read an article on another board I go to occasionally pertaining to wine , wine collecting… expensive , rare s~~~ and well everything. It’s a huge wine community , and the post wondered why there weren’t more women who got into collecting wine , and talking about it , and hence why so few of them posted there. Well the first post I cam accross was this by Sarah Kirchenbaum(or whatever) –

It is absolutely true that, while there are tons of women ITB, and certainly many enthusiasts, there are very few collectors in a serious sense. (As a side note, I realize that the notion of “collecting” rather than just drinking or enjoying wine is not without it’s negative implications here, but it’s the most useful direction from which to approach the question.) I am often the only woman bidding for her own account at auctions, and, when talking with the owners of various wine storage facilities, they confirm that very few of their clients are women, especially not with sizable collections. There are many reasons for this imbalance, most of which are pretty obvious historically, including income levels and alcohol consumption levels. Then there’s the fact that men in general are the collectors – coins, stamps, baseball cards, what have you. Not that women don’t accumulate (shoes, bags and jewelry spring to mind as the stereotypical items to amass), but the obsessive collectors of almost anything are men.

As for participation in forums, the sexism is rampant and insidious, on top of what Jason calls the “jocular” tone (I would use the word “puerile” in many cases – sorry, guys). I can point to numerous instances of open condescension I’ve experienced from people on this and other boards who assume that, since I’m a woman, I must be a beginner, despite some fairly obvious evidence to the contrary. It seems to be reflexive. I don’t find it offensive most of the time – I work in finance, so I’m accustomed to institutionalized and tacitly condoned sexism. It isn’t exactly welcoming to women, though.

PS – there are notable and important exceptions to the rule, of course, and I consider myself lucky to have met and built friendships with some other brilliant and experienced female collectors.

So this triggered me I suppose—-I go on that board and look at technical info mostly but had never seen anything sexist coming out of there…have heard some things I thought were crass perhaps , but not overly sexist. Someone else posted this before me –

sexual and sexist are two different things. conversation here certainly often includes innuendo, double entendre, or overt sexualness, but sexist/sexism/discrimination? i don’t see that too often.

Then KatrinaBI – posts this

Not much to add to this. I think Sarah puts it well. Coming from an academic background though, I’ve been floored by some of the sexist posts. It’s not something I’m used to encountering so it makes it harder to process.

I still read and post occasionally because there is so much good information. And I think new women posters are more likely to stick around if they see at least some posts from regular women posters like Sarah, Siun, Merrill, Nola and others.

So now I’m really intrigued to see if I missed anything

More from Sheila –

I post here occasionally. I cringe most of the time with the locker room bullying behavior. I get tired of the wine comparisons to women such as “Pamela Anderson/Sophia Loren”. There was a post last week that basically alluded to date rape. I shut my computer down.

So I posted this in response to the sexism charge :

the sexism is rampant and insidious, on top of what Jason calls the “jocular” tone (I would use the word “puerile” in many cases – sorry, guys). I can point to numerous instances of open condescension I’ve experienced from people on this and other boards who assume that, since I’m a woman, I must be a beginner, despite some fairly obvious evidence to the contrary. It seems to be reflexive. I don’t find it offensive most of the time – I work in finance, so I’m accustomed to institutionalized and tacitly condoned sexism. It isn’t exactly welcoming to women, though.

I’m sorry , but I frequently read this forum and sometimes participate but haven’t seen any of that here(maybe it’s happening where I’m not looking)…..I thought that there were laws passed many years ago to prevent that in the workplace.

Then come the white knights :

Ha! Yes, well we also have laws setting the speed limit. No speeding anymore either, amiright?!

Maybe you’re just not as sensitivite/aware as some others are. There certainly are sexist comments here and, as someone noted, a couple repeat offenders.

And while laws may prohibit certain behaviors in the workplace, that doesn’t mean they don’t happen.

So I respond :

I’ve seen comments I thought were crass , but not sexist. I just frequent this board (wine talk) so I’m unaware of what might occur elsewhere.

Suuuure. Just like there is this huge rape culture in Western society.

Perhaps a mistake because more white knights :

Not to get too far afield, but if you’re actually asserting that neither sexism in the workplace nor rape occur “with much frequency”, you’re simply out of touch.

Women on this board have said they have witnessed or experienced sexism here, and your response is “oh yeah? prove it!” ???

I guess that’s why you don’t believe that rape or sexual harassment occur with frequency, because nobody has taken on the burden of proving it to you. And there are laws against drug use too, good thing nobody uses drugs anymore!

Edit: Michael beat me to the same point.

So I tried to use logic to bolster my case by posting :

in modern times you surely can’t equate the fine for a speeding ticket with the loss of a 6 figure job(Finance) , or should I say career. Who would be that dumb to risk that , is my point?

Didn’t slow them down with there bulls~~~ :

s the form of argument here “because I would not risk that, or because I would not do that, or because I don’t think it would be reasonable to do that,” mean that it is not done? To move beyond the realm of speeding tickets, how about insider trading, or embezzlement, or tax fraud? Each of those, when caught, lead to losing a financially lucrative job. There are laws against such activity. Yet it still happens.

There is, of course, a whole other issue about what activity that creates a hostile work environment in fact is actionable (and of course I am not saying that such things should lead to criminal or civil liability — but that does not mean they don’t exist).

Dude nobody has to spend hours digging through past posts to find the incidences of sexism. You sound like a child. We’ve seen them. Some of us have commented on them. Good for you for not being sexist. #notallberserkers

Virtually every female I know in finance has indicated that the level of sexism in their industry is high. If you’ve ever done even casual reading about the finance culture you don’t really even have to squint to see it.

Then when I saw this I found the answer I was looking for…these few women in there are feminists frothing at the mouth and it would do no good to argue with them.

There is zero upside to us publicly pointing out instances of sexism on this board. Doing so will only lead to defensiveness, being told that we are wrong, that we’re too sensitive, or to being called a raging feminist. It’s too bad, because there is a chance, albeit small, that someone might actually hear and understand and improve their behavior just a tiny smidge. But I’ve taken that risk before and ended up flamed and attacked personally and openly and I’d rather not go there again just to prove I’m right. In general terms, though, the condescension towards women is my biggest complaint. Also the stereotyping of women (I’m not talking about wine descriptors or even sexual comments) and specifically women and how they feel about/interact with wine. The crudely sexual jokes, especially when they take the overall tone and atmosphere to one that is highly uncomfortable for women not because they are “sensitive” but because they are members of the category being objectified or degraded, also have their sexist component – it’s disingenuous to say the two (sexual vs sexist) are totally separate things.

As for the workplace, you are deluded if you think sexism doesn’t occur there just because laws were passed. Women are still paid less for doing the same or more/better work than men are. Women are still excluded and shut out every day on every level. Women are still treated differently in nearly every type of interaction, from how we are given feedback by our bosses to insisting we go first into the elevator. If you as a woman feel sick, you are considered weak. If a guy comes in with a hangover in the morning on the trading floor, he’s patted on the back and included in camaraderie-building teasing (provided he doesn’t do it too often). I could go on and on andonandonandon.

That was coming from Sarah Cuckbaum or whatever her name is that started the whole rant about sexist comments in the first place. I guess I learned my lesson post red pill…they really DO live in a different world. What gets me is that in ALL of that no one came forth with anything sexist other than describing a wine using a metaphor for a stacked woman , like Ginger Rogers.

[uchibenkeiParticipant 7965]

Yeah denying rape culture exists does not mean you are denying that rape exists. Murder exists. Does that mean we’re living in a murder culture? Would that not be a bigger problem to resolve?

I bathe in the tears of single moms.

[EtrangereParticipant 706]

Yeah denying rape culture exists does not mean you are denying that rape exists. Murder exists. Does that mean we’re living in a murder culture? Would that not be a bigger problem to resolve?

Probably should have kept that to myself….I smelled feminist c~~~ though and I just had to probe…lol

[Anonymous 3]

Why are you arguing with women and manginas on the internet? Are you retarded or something?

[the roadParticipant 3125]

You took the bait. But you learned your lesson it seems. I rarely speak out about anything online these days unless I’m ready to invest the time to battle the war of strawman arguments and semantics.

#MANOUT

[NewgroundsParticipant 558]

That’s the majority if what you’ll come across on mainstream threads or media, true intellectual arguments that aren’t based on fallacies are rare and dying.

|Right Wing Death Squad| Swallowed both Red Pills /pol/MGTOW

[UntamedParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

Why are you arguing with women and manginas on the internet? Are you retarded or something?

What would they know about wine anyways?
They can pick the grapes and shut up.

Don't let them Blame, Shame or Tame you!
Give 'em NOTHING, not even an answer!
#GenderSegragationNow!

[HaymakerParticipant 226]

Arguing with females is like playing chess with pidgeon. Pidgeon just jumps on a board, throwing all the pieces and dancing like they won. I too very rarely go on internet disscusions. There is no point.

Always going big, Yeah you know the kid, Call me haymaker.

[RennieParticipant]

Better to avoid these people. You engage a t~~~, or call her out on her BS and she starts a fit and the fools show up to defend her. Even if she’s clearly wrong and or lying.

The white knights are usually unfathomably arrogant. As soon as they show up, then bail, because you’ll never win, even if you’re right. They’ll make you look bad in the eyes of everyone else and drag you down in the mud.

I rarely get involved with forums anymore. I won’t even sign up on a forum if I see any t~~~’s in them, especially if there are alot of them.

Women ruin forums and discussion boards and once they get established in one it’s fate is all but sealed.

That’s why this place is so great and worth supporting financially. We have none of that garbage here.

[AttonParticipant]

That woman Sarah Kirschbaum has a victim complex and the spine of an infant she is disgusting. I dare say the army of mangina’s are worse.

Why are you arguing with women and manginas on the internet? Are you retarded or something?

No it’s just funny you should try it.

A MGTOW is a man who is not a woman's bitch!

[EtrangereParticipant 706]

Arguing with females is like playing chess with pidgeon. Pidgeon just jumps on a board, throwing all the pieces and dancing like they won. I too very rarely go on internet disscusions. There is no point.

Haha I spit tea all over my monitor….great analogy

What would they know about wine anyways?
They can pick the grapes and shut up.

Well that’s what is so interesting to me about the whole article in the first place. Most of the people involved in collecting and consuming wine of pedigree are MEN. Women either don’t have the money , are too cheap , don’t have the class or all of the above.

Why are you arguing with women and manginas on the internet? Are you retarded or something?

I must be

[FrankyParticipant 2338]

There are 2 main things you must always consider,

1)is the person you’re talking to retarded?
If no proceed.
If yes abort.

2)is the person you’re talking to unable to be intellectually honest for once.(a woman, may include obnoxious blue-pillers sometimes)
If no proceed.
If yes abort.

[EtrangereParticipant 706]

@ Franky – Agree brother , and really I was just trying to see where the discussion went. I strongly suspected that Sarah Cuckbaum was a card carrying feminist so I waited until I saw this

Women are still paid less for doing the same or more/better work than men are. Women are still excluded and shut out every day on every level. Women are still treated differently in nearly every type of interaction, from how we are given feedback by our bosses to insisting we go first into the elevator. If you as a woman feel sick, you are considered weak. If a guy comes in with a hangover in the morning on the trading floor, he’s patted on the back and included in camaraderie-building teasing (provided he doesn’t do it too often). I could go on and on andonandonandon.

At that point I was done with the discussion , because ; why bother?

[MenorahmanSpectator 185]

Internet forums are littered with white knight.

I was just banned from TalkBass (for the 3rd time) because I gave advice to a guy who was complaining about online dating. What I said was pretty innocuous, and in response people attacked me personally. I defended myself with logic, and was banned for “insulting the user base.”

A while ago I made a topic on TalkBass about a bad experience with a female singer (which led to an earlier ban). The woman acted like a spoiled brat when she was supposed to be doing something professional, and in response a ton of betas said it was all my fault. I wasn’t even calling out all women, just that one. Ever since that topic, white knights on that site have followed me anywhere I post so they can insult me. Any time I said something that disagreed with the hive mind (music-related or otherwise), I was accused of trolling so my posts would be removed.

You can usually tell who’s wrong by their tactics. Intelligent people will make rational statements, and idiots will try to have those statements removed because they are incapable of rational thought. Censorship is a tool for the mentally weak.

[EtrangereParticipant 706]

I was just banned from TalkBass (for the 3rd time) because I gave advice to a guy who was complaining about online dating. What I said was pretty innocuous, and in response people attacked me personally

What did you say?

I like to go to that site because it’s all about sharing wine experiences(good and bad) , and there are some people that post notes on wines that I can’t afford(and wouldn’t buy even if I could).

Insults only work if you allow them to

[MenorahmanSpectator 185]

I told the TC that he should forget online dating and social media, and that he should move on from women because he is wasting his time. Then I was banned.

Of course, the last time I was banned was for using the word “penis” while paraphrasing someone else’s post. The guy who made the initial post deleted it, and then the admins (who admitted to having a grudge against me) saw mine without the context (even though it was in quotes).

The sad thing about men is that they have internalized being powerless to such a degree that they exert “internet authority” in order to feel like a big man.

Humanity is a cesspool.

[EtrangereParticipant 706]

I told the TC that he should forget online dating and social media, and that he should move on from women because he is wasting his time. Then I was banned.

Seems harmless to me…online dating only serves as validation for women these days. It used to be better , but now is a total waste of time…ask C-pig

[xlrsnbrgParticipant 1786]

Franky wrote:

There are 2 main things you must always consider,

1)is the person you’re talking to retarded?
If no proceed.
If yes abort.

2)is the person you’re talking to unable to be intellectually honest for once.(a woman, may include obnoxious blue-pillers sometimes)
If no proceed.
If yes abort.

Some people might find trolling them a bit quite amusing.

A man shouldn't make his life's objective to be on the side of the majority, but to avoid finding himself in the ranks of the insane. (Marcus Aurelius)

[UintatheriumParticipant 1861]

The “red pill” is called that for a reason. You can’t force anyone to take it. If they want the red pill, they will come take it.

That’s why MGTOW will never be the majority. We don’t even need to be the majority because we can have a ton of fun being the minority. Hanging around with other guys and doing bro stuff is fun even if most people aren’t interested. If Nietzsche were here today then he would certainly agree.

Why You Should Keep MGTOW to Yourself

MGTOW: because you can (and should) say anything about a woman as long as she isn't within earshot

[narwhalParticipant]

A few comments:

– The problem with claiming that you’ve been wronged due to sexism, racism, or whatever -ism is that you tend to complete ignore the possibility that there is another reason. I would guess that this woman’s coworkers treated her differently because she acts differently then them, or she hasn’t really made an attempt to fit in. Women are used to people trying to accommodate them. When that doesn’t happen, they claim sexism. She be doing herself a favor by tossing out the sexism excuse and look at ways she can improve her work environment for herself.

– Honestly, the arguments you provided weren’t that strong. If you’re going to disagree, you really should bring more to the table.

– As pointed out, it was a waste of time anyway. It became clear rather early that the discussion wasn’t going to be about logic or facts, but about groupthink.

– Speaking of group think, I noticed how the feminist started showing her true colors after the white knights placed themselves in front of her.

– I am no wine connoisseur, but I have noticed a few things. Men will see it as their hobby, what they enjoy spending their time on. They are not bothered by others who don’t share their hobby, as long as they aren’t disrespectful about it. Women, are completely different. The fact that they know about wine means they are more classy and sophisticated then you. If you can’t order a bottle of wine restaurant properly, then you aren’t worthy of their time. At the same time, they will get defensive about their immature tastes (pairing with food incorrectly, etc) and how frequently they get drunk from their wine ‘hobby’. Oh, and you’re supposed to buy them the expensive wine.

Ok. Then do it.

[Author]

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