Convo with my PUA friend

[Zoom66Participant 57]

My best friend is pretty purple pilled and has become entrenched with learning PUA philosophy, and more so the inner game components that RSD pitches. I consider myself to have gone MGTOW after years of notch building and deciding that women are simply not worth much more than sex and at the most friends with benefits. We had a convo tonight about his goal to create “social circle game” with me the next time we go out, which basically means emulating what Tyler and Julien from RSD do, which in my opinion is hold women to zero standard and provide endless one-sided entertainment for free, as if the results will be enjoyable. He’s referenced aspects of eastern philosophy in regards to much of this “freedom of outcome” & “having no expectations”.

The convo got weird when I told him that I’d go out with him but I will never “provide fun” for women, especially randoms at a bar that I don’t know and anything I do will be a mutual exchange of entertainment (aka, the second they start they put up the wall, I will not plunge forward.) He began telling me that I was “obsessed with justice” and that no such thing exists with women. I told him I don’t care if women make want to create their own reality of such entitlement, I can still live in a reality with reasonable principals you’d expect from anyone.

We volleyed thoughts back and forth and I ended up admitting to him that I just don’t like or respect most women and that a “fun” night would best occur with my avoidance of them, because pretending that bringing women into some phony social circle would only inevitably lead to negativity from them in some fashion either by rejection, leeching, or arrogance.

In conclusion, he became worried about me. He understands my dislike of women and can relate, but doesn’t understand why I let that turn into negativity. I explained to him that we have different philosophies, and that he believes in molding your own reality (shaping your attitudes) where as I believe in objective reality (making observations and proceeding based on those circumstances.) Happiness is NOT my goal in life; but rather living with meaning, virtue and ethics is. To him, happiness seems to be the sole focus. He doesn’t seem to understand that we will never agree on the fact that women simply do not deserve the attention most men give them and that I will not allow myself to be the next fool in line providing that “free” entertainment without something back from them (aka mutual interest, which is rare.) He is fixed on the belief of not taking from other people and creating and sharing all your happiness. Personally, I do not believe he is really happy, yet this RSD stuff has him brainwashing him that he is happier than he thinks he is. I do believe in making your own happiness, but I do NOT think that translates into having fun at female venues like clubs; I believe it translates into indulging in personal pleasures such as male hobbies.

Anyways, I figured I’d just share this conversation. I’m sure some of you can relate. Feel free to share any thoughts if they come to mind. Anyways, I don’t think all PUA cancer, but goddamn does it turn men into self-help drones. These guys seem to never believe anyone owes them an ounce of respect.

[AwakenedParticipant 35201]

I think you NEED to find a new friend as you must go your way, as does he.

You two are not on the same path, and nor do either of you want to join the other.

Move On my friend……

In a World of Justin Beibers Be a Johnny Cash

[Zoom66Participant 57]

If he wasn’t what I’d consider a truly caring, loyal, giving friend that would give me the shirt off his back; you’re right. Fortunately, this one area of our friendship represents a fraction of our overall brotherhood in other ways. I will say that we’ll have to respect our very different directions when it comes to dealings with the opposite sex. I certainly won’t be open to even the most well intentioned advice if it pertains to PUA, so this won’t be a habitual conversation between us. Before reaching MGTOW I had my own experience with PUA and while I’m glad I did, I’d never return.

[Greg HondaParticipant 6406]

Good Post.

Interesting that Men’s interaction with women seems to be falling into two camps, MGTOW and PUA.

PUA avoid commitment as we we do, but still chase Pussy. MGTOWs range from Oil Change / Pump & Dump, all the way through to Ghost, Actively avoid or Monk.

The common factor being that neither group beleive the old Myths of LTR’s being the route to happiness.

The available pool of commitment-seeking Blue Piller’s must be shrinking.

Fewer suckers to do all the work and pick up the Tab.

Congratulations Ladies, You really p~~~ed us off good.

It's Time to get Wise

[AwakenedParticipant 35201]

Then it’s probably best to “agree to disagree”, and continue your friendship on a level that doesn’t include the whole Women thing. Since, I’m assuming you have other mutual interests/hobbies or whatever it shouldn’t be a BIG deal to get together for those things, and move on with your life as does he with “other” areas of life.

In a World of Justin Beibers Be a Johnny Cash

[Zoom66Participant 57]

Accurate my friend. I also will add that as more men join PUA, the competition to employ PUA techniques will rise to infinite levels. I told him once, that the next generation will be raised on PUA thinking because that will be the only way for future young guys to get a date to prom; and his methods of “game” will eventually be considered average communication with women. This kind of hypercompetition just breeds even more tail-chasing. I don’t think these guys realize the cycle at no point comes to an end as the women continue to learn their techniques through exposure (even if most of them fail regardless.)

[It’sallbsParticipant]

In other word he is just denying reality.

The cult of positivity not negativity strikes again.

http://www.leavemeansleave.eu

[Ranger OneParticipant 16836]

Zoom66 wrote:

I explained to him that we have different philosophies, and that he believes in molding your own reality (shaping your attitudes) where as I believe in objective reality (making observations and proceeding based on those circumstances.) Happiness is NOT my goal in life; but rather living with meaning, virtue and ethics is. To him, happiness seems to be the sole focus.

What you said reminds me of what is in the book I have, “Meditations” by Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher Marcus Aurelius.

Summarized, he emphasizes pursuing tranquility over happiness, and virtue over pleasure. Your friend has completely reversed those priorities.

Consider the ancient Greek definition of happiness “The exercise of vital powers, along lines of excellence, in a life affording them scope.”

MGTOW follows those very ancient lines of thought.

All my life I've had doubts about who I am, where I belonged. Now I'm like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation, no doubts. The path is clear. And what are you? Alive. Everything else is negotiable. Women have rights; men have responsibilities; MGTOW have freedom. Marriage is for chumps. If someone stands in the way of true justice, you simply walk up behind them and stab them in the heart-R'as al Ghul.

[Zoom66Participant 57]

I agree. It seems that the PUA industry is reaching hard to establish a connection between their methods and eastern philosophy lately. While I think that is a net positive, I don’t think they realize how flagrantly incompatible it is with their end goals which seem to be shape-shifting depending on who you ask on a given day.

On Monday you’ll get: “PUA is to help men interact with women”
On Tuesday you’ll get: “PUA is learning not to care about women to become more attractive”
On Wednesday you’ll get: “PUA is about not really about the women.”

LOL

I don’t know about the guys that pay for this stuff, but either everyone in that industry is under some serious self-delusion or that’s one of the greatest bait-and-switches I’ve ever heard. You’re either seeking tranquility(/acceptance), in which you’d more than likely go MGTOW and eliminate toxic desires, or you’re trying to get women by marching into a club and forcing yourself into situations that are not natural at all, while proclaiming your unlimited “happiness” as you conveniently make attempt after attempt to invoke chaos into your already blissful night out.

Call me a cynic, but I see this as one mega successful marketing attempt for PUAs to produce zero results and have the guy not complain about it.

[narwhalParticipant]

I would recommend every man get a little exposure to PUA philosophies. Much of it makes a lot of logic sense, when it comes to how a man’s behavior is projecting to others. For example, how you sit can show confidence. Then, there is the aspect of looking at situations from a different point of view. If some one rejects you, consider first that there is an issue with them, not with you.

In regards to controlling your happiness that way, I agree with that. I feel like much of PUA is compatible and useful for MGTOW.

However, I do agree that PUA has a big conflict with itself, as it still ultimately defines success as achieving approval (and sex) from women. It doesn’t even seem to have a problem with outright lies to achieve that goal.

I’d rather spend my time on real things then living that fantasy.

Ok. Then do it.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Zoom66 wrote:

He understands my dislike of women and can relate, but doesn’t understand why I let that turn into negativity.

I don’t understand how it wouldn’t turn into negativity. How many times do you need to get handed the s~~~ty end of the stick by women before you say ya know what…I’m done with this game. Every dating experience and girlfriend I’ve had has been a learning experience for me, and over time I’ve learned thing like its a lop sided game(although it starts to shift the other way once you hit 30), most women are sluts with a high c~~~ count and a dirty pussy, finding a loyal woman is near impossible these days, the wall is not kind to women, and dating/relationships fails a cost/benefit analysis badly. What am I supposed to do, remold myself to have a positive attitude on the whole thing, run out and marry a post wall slut, then find myself divorce raped and broke for the next 20 years while I have to pay her to f~~~ Chad in a house I paid for? No way lol.

[TaxGuyParticipant]

Your friend is looking for happiness, you are looking for contentment. Plain and simple. Happiness is a “right now” feeling. If you score the girl’s phone number and go to leave the bar with her, you are happy. Then when you walk out the door and see you have a flat tire, you aren’t “happy” anymore.

Contentment is a more long-term, big picture viewpoint of life. Good for you for having that viewpoint. Life is a marathon, not a daily 100 yard dash.

Order the good wine

[Ranger OneParticipant 16836]

TaxGuy wrote:

Your friend is looking for happiness, you are looking for contentment. Plain and simple. Happiness is a “right now” feeling. If you score the girl’s phone number and go to leave the bar with her, you are happy. Then when you walk out the door and see you have a flat tire, you aren’t “happy” anymore.

Contentment is a more long-term, big picture viewpoint of life. Good for you for having that viewpoint. Life is a marathon, not a daily 100 yard dash.

Well said! Very Marcus Aurelius!

All my life I've had doubts about who I am, where I belonged. Now I'm like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation, no doubts. The path is clear. And what are you? Alive. Everything else is negotiable. Women have rights; men have responsibilities; MGTOW have freedom. Marriage is for chumps. If someone stands in the way of true justice, you simply walk up behind them and stab them in the heart-R'as al Ghul.

[DorkShitParticipant 4353]

Zoom66 wrote:

In conclusion, he became worried about me. He understands my dislike of women and can relate, but doesn’t understand why I let that turn into negativity.

This is very telling.

You describe how it turns into a negative. This is where a major logical error/flaw is made.

Your friend sees a pickup artist catching pussy as a positive. He is blind to the negative that can occur after you catch the pussy. He is all about the positive immediate gratification of his lust.

I am positive that mgtow is the positive path. It is the path that you appear to be on. We shall see who’s life turns negative.

Peace brothers

[Ranger OneParticipant 16836]

The problem with PUA is that is essentially an endorsement of hedonism. It is essentially playing Russian roulette with women, and patting yourself on the back when you click on an empty chamber in the revolver.

All my life I've had doubts about who I am, where I belonged. Now I'm like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation, no doubts. The path is clear. And what are you? Alive. Everything else is negotiable. Women have rights; men have responsibilities; MGTOW have freedom. Marriage is for chumps. If someone stands in the way of true justice, you simply walk up behind them and stab them in the heart-R'as al Ghul.

[Maximus AureliusParticipant 351]

Ranger One wrote:

Zoom66 wrote:

….

What you said reminds me of what is in the book I have, “Meditations” by Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher Marcus Aurelius.

Summarized, he emphasizes pursuing tranquility over happiness, and virtue over pleasure. Your friend has completely reversed those priorities.

Consider the ancient Greek definition of happiness “The exercise of vital powers, along lines of excellence, in a life affording them scope.”

MGTOW follows those very ancient lines of thought.

Amen Brother!

Meditating on the Wisdom & Truths of Man, Isn't just a Philosophy, but a Calling......Be willing to be Called a Man!

[Zoom66Participant 57]

I can relate to your sentiments. To me, expressing positivity around s~~~ty people is being an enabler. Alot of MGTOWs on various forums are beginning to crack down as hard on simps as they do on women because they’re seeing the interconnection more vividly. Living in a gynocentric society means a man has no control in his engagements with women. Obviously if my engagements are often doomed from the start, your average man can at least enjoy the control that comes with non-engagement. Why would he not at the very least partly entertain the option of non-engagement when engagement so often comes at increasingly poor cost to benefit ratio? How some men fail to see empowerment in not being used for your money, and having your time wasted is beyond me. This isn’t some victim mentality; you’re not asking for help from anyone; you’re simply employing logical damage control per the definition of insanity principal.

[Zoom66Participant 57]

I just heard a quote from Jordan Peterson as he was explaining the issues with the utopian world view by SJW’s. He stated “They fail to understand that suffering is an intrinsic part of being.”

Happiness is a fleeting emotion, and despite it being susceptible to some manipulation; nature has designed individuals as such that regression to the mean will always occur (aka suffering will always occur). But what is often forgotten is that suffering can be controlled far more effectively by mastering tranquility and acceptance than cultivating frequent emotional periods of happiness. My greatest periods of depression were the intensity of the downwards force exerted from the loss of happiness down to pure suffering. That is in part why they say people that have nothing to lose are often the hardest to break, it does make sense.

[Anonymous 3]

Some parts of the PUA knowledge are useful in general behavior with people (social dynamics, reading non verbal communication) and to build career and self confidence (inner game). This part can be helpful for life start for a young boy who knows nothing. But for the “picking up girls” part… too bad there is neglegible chance to pick up an unicorn nawalt, too high chance of false allegiations, emotional blackmail, girl controlling your life decisions if you let them, and so on….

[Zoom66Participant 57]

Undoubtedly. I would say if someone insists in wanting to scour around in purplepill territory, there’s nothing outrageous about learning and implementing PUA tactics. MGTOW isn’t for everyone and even those it is for, it often takes years of reference material to appreciate what going your own way entails.

The problem I have is the apparent lack of honesty being instilled in the loyal consumers of this stuff. So often when I was absorbed in it, I kept on waiting for the outer game tactics that would really drop panties. I was told to be patient and continue to learn, study and be patient. I complied till the end. Eventually, when at what I consider to be the reasonable top tier of education, I was told that none of it should be about the women anymore if I was doing it right… Oh really? Looking back, I understand full circle what their sort of business model is alot more. Upon revisiting more of their outer game material; I made another important observation. Alot of the outer game tactics PUA’s would instruct were not very impressive at all; infact, I would say that your run of the mill socio-normative male in his late twenties would already know. I began picking this stuff apart and realized that none of it was really that profound, creative or unique at all. The inner game stuff obviously has its merits, but I now find myself wondering is guys wanting to be good with girls should just pickup a Buddhism book or try to go directly into MGTOW for the same result.

Back in the day, guys like David DeAngelo would demonstrate interactions more directly. It was useful stuff because not every man needs boat loads of inner game. Some are mildly autistic and inner game is the least of their concern. I just wish more guys would pressure these PUAs to advertise their s~~~ more accurately.

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