Search Results for 'the+final+plan'

[xgreenlanternoxParticipant]

TRUBLU22 wrote:

So I totally think I just f***ed myself. Stayed up late last night dumping buckets of truth on my wife. After I spent quite awhile tossing and turning, then woke up this A.M. thinking I totally just did everything wrong. My instincts are saying run like hell! Here’s some background, I work overseas and take my vacations for a month at a time, I’m do to rotate out and its required that I leave the job for 30 days. I’ve been married for 14 years and have an awesome little guy. The marriage has been a colossal struggle in a ridiculous amount of crazy bulls~~~ which has lead me down a path of self discovery that has been awesome, painful but educating if that makes sense. For some jackass reason yesterday I decided to put it all out there really in the tone of “hey, your f’ng me over at about every turn here, you can’t expect that I want to continue to go through all of this” surprisingly there was some of the old gas-lighting, crazy making s~~~ that usually happens but then some reflection and I felt fairly satisfied that maybe she gets it. So I think that I should have woken up today thinking, “cool, maybe we can cut the s~~~ and move forward” not at all what I’m thinking now. I woke with about the worst feeling of dread, I’ve been around the war on terror for quite a few years and its worse than that, seriously. So for whatever reason, I broke the rule, attacked the matrix. Logic says this will not be good, kind of like waking a sleep walker. So here’s the deal, 1. forget about being a good dad for awhile and boogie to Thailand/Phillipines/[Insert cheap party country here]; 2. head to good ole’ mom and dads and try to get some time with my son (about 600 miles apart from the wife) if she’ll let it happen, or let the two of us travel together (doubtful) 3. Head to my house (our home, currently occupied by my wife and child) and hope I don’t end up being accused of some crazy bulls~~~. Obviously the last option sucks but it might be good to get it over with, kind of a lets go ahead and get the inevitable deal breaking insane s~~~ out there so I have no choice but to stay gone, type of mindset. Get it over with so to speak. Thoughts?

The thing that makes me the most uncomfortable about this is simply knowing the way these she-devils are. In their mind, a man is nothing more than their trained pet that needs to respond to their every command in a timely and appropriate manner. When he doesn’t, they work extra hard to ensure they can devise the maximum level of “punishment” they see fit for his misbehavior. While you may have initially felt you got through to her and made some progress, your gut instinct kicked in and you are absolutely correct. You have planted the seed that you are no longer going to be her whipping boy and now she is plotting her revenge while trying to make you think nothing is wrong so that she can hit you as hard and low as possible unexpectedly. This is how women operate.

What you really need to do is change your mentality altogether. Things like “if she’ll let me” cannot be a part of your vocabulary any longer. You have reached the point in time where you have decided you are fed up with her s~~~ and now it is time to prepare your final exit. Start hiding money as soon as you can and work towards getting out of there for good. As I said before, you have shown her you have woken up to her attempted life of slavery for you – she knows you are no longer her pawn and will make it her top priority to make you as miserable as possible.

This was a few years ago..luckily I was already red pill at the time, but it demonstrates the female mind set so well from so many different angles.  Anyways…I had a female family member insist I go meet one of her coworkers that was close to my age…so I finally cave in and go on a blind date with her.  Turns out she was pretty hot, had a decent job so at least wasn’t a total financial train wreck, and was fun just to spend time with.  So we hit it off and date for about 6 months.

It became quite apparent about a month into it that she wanted to move in with me, and was looking to get real serious really fast…but I wasn’t dumb enough to do that lol.  Also during that time…her and my relative that hooked us up sort of evolved from a casual coworker relationship to bffs, with me being their favorite topic of conversation.  Now my family is one of those ones with no secrets in it…so pretty much I end up dating this girl who spends more time talking to my mom and my aunt about me, than she spends talking me about us.  My mom and aunt also become very pushy in the relationship as they both viewed this girl as a great slave master for me.  Like literally the first time we spent the night together…her phone rings at 7:30 the next morning and its my aunt asking “How did last night go?”

So needless to say…it only lasted about 6 months because things just kept getting worse and worse, it was so ridiculous having an annoying relative get on your case every time you say something your girl didn’t want you to say, so I end up breaking it off.  Like if she did something I didn’t agree with and I let her know, she’d cry to my aunt, who would then bitch at me for being a dick, or if I said/did something not up to her expectations, she’d cry to my aunt, and I’d have an aunt on my case about it.  I just remember her telling me the last time we talked face to face, “Even your own mother said you’re a jerk.”  I’m just thinking wtf…is she really so stupid to throw something in my face that one of my family members told her, when my biggest reason I just had given her for why things were not going so well with us was the fact that she has to give the play by play on everything to my family members who are way too f~~~ing intrusive and pushy in our relationship…especially after being asked more than once to stop running her mouth so much.  Well that, and I’m thinking thanks mom, lol.

So fast forward about a year from that point.  The family member the set us up has to give me the play by play on that girls life.  She had to tell me all about her new boyfriend, how she got an apartment with him, how funny he was, how he makes so much more money than I do, how happy she is with him, how they just went on a trip together…blah blah blah…all the typical girl bulls~~~ just to try to make me feel like I messed up.  Literally…my own relative trying to make me feel like I’m a loser for not being with some girl that from my perspective just brought a ton of f~~~ing drama into my life, even though that same family member was one of the biggest reasons I couldn’t stand to be with her lol.  So my plan the whole time had been to give her no reaction when she talked about that s~~~, and just reply with generic s~~~ like “oh thats nice,” or “good for her,” like s~~~ you’d say if your mom tells you she ran into some kid that grew up down the road that you could care less about, but felt the urge to update you on what he’s been up to.  I literally wanted to give no reaction, because not only could I not give my aunt the satisfaction of her thinking I thought I made a mistake, but I definitely couldn’t let her go run her mouth to the ex about me being jealous or having regrets or w/e…it was like a giant mind game that went on for a year, I couldn’t let the women win, and I totally won lol.  Well I’m winning I should say…its still going on more than 5 years later, and I’m pretty sure it won’t ever end.

So needless to say…after about a year of not talking to or contacting that girl at all, I get a phone call from her one afternoon.  Of course I don’t pick it up…it ends up going to voice mail.  The voice mail was very clearly a *thud* like someone putting a phone down on a table.  It was then just about a minute of a tv very clearly playing in the background…clear enough you could make out what the voices were saying on a couple commercials before it hit its time limit and hung up.  I just erase it and don’t think much of it, as I had erased her number out of my phone and hadn’t realized who it was at that point, but the girl starts texting me the next morning, saying “hey its xxxx sorry for butt dialing you,” just I just reply with something generic like “No problem.”  I knew it was complete bulls~~~…if she had sat on her phone and it dialed me…she’d have been sitting on it, her ass and her cushion would not have made a thud, and you wouldn’t be able to clearly hear a tv playing.  I only gave her any response because I figured I could at least take the high road…more so I didn’t want to be a prick for the sole reason that I knew word would get back to my aunt if I was, and it was just extra drama, where as I’d love to continue my game of her trying to get a reaction from me, and me not giving her a f~~~ing thing.  Over the next few hours she continues to text me…asking about school…the dog…work…all kinds of s~~~ trying to spark a conversation up, but I just ignore her, and I eventually get a text that just says “well sorry if I bothered you.”  Up until that point I was at work anyhow…so I figured it was all perfect…I’d be totally set up to play it off like the irrelevant event it was if my aunt brought it up.

So later that afternoon after work…I see that aunt.  Literally the first thing she says to me, “I heard xxxx butt dialed you.”  Instantly I know, even more so than I had suspected, it wasn’t a random butt dial, if you accidentally dialed an ex…you’d probably act like it didn’t happen and hope they don’t call back, not proceed to send them a half a dozen texts trying to get them talking, and you certainly wouldn’t have to call someone just to tell them about it…it just wouldn’t have been a big deal, especially for someone who moved on to such a better relationship.  So I continue to win at my game…just give her some generic response like “no big deal, it happens.”

Now where it starts to get really good.  The first chance my uncle had that same afternoon where it was just me and him with no women around…he gets this big old s~~~ eating grin, and he’s like I gotta tell you about xxxx’s boyfriend.  He just got arrested, he got popped for possession of an unregistered firearm, possession of weed and ecstasy, and soliciting a prostitute.  My uncle knew the whole deal between me, the girl, and my aunt…he even had been telling my aunt since the whole thing started a year and a half earlier to back off me, its none of her business…which is why he was so delighted to tell me some s~~~ty news…as he knew my aunt had trying to make me feel like a loser that missed out on a goddess for a solid year at that point.  I made sure to just kinda give him a canned generic response with not much reaction too as I knew he’s a bit of a mangina, and anything I did say in response would ultimately find my aunts ear, but in reality I’m doing everything I can not to burst the f~~~ out laughing my ass off.

Looking back on that, it fits so many of the traits red pillers on this forum have come to expect from women.  Obviously the girl was very manipulative, as she knew she was trying to use my family as leverage, as they would push me to give her what she wanted.  Luckily I realized this pretty quickly and wasn’t stupid enough to let her live with me or anything.  The hive mentality was in clear play…notice how even my own female relatives were more than eager to jump on the woman’s side, and not even once ask me for my opinion or thoughts on the relationship.  It was all about one narcissistic woman trying to get what she wanted, and two other women helping one of their own to enslave a man.  Even after it ended…it was still two enablers trying to mindf~~~ me and get me to give them any sort of decent reaction just so they could ego stroke the ex.  Basically the entire thing from start to finish was all about the women…none of them gave a s~~~ how I felt or what I wanted…and ultimately I just chose to walk away from the drama and keep my sanity…at which point, it suddenly became all about me.  I was the reason things didn’t work out…none of them had any blame in it.  Obviously when I walked off of their plantation, it became about me for the first time, because they realized the only thing they can do when they hold no power over you is try to shame you…like we all know feminist love to do so much.

So what really motivated me to write all this?  Well…another thing commonly spoken of on this forum is living well.  Since that all went down…I’ve continued to invest in me and improve my life.  I’m still active and in shape, I’m done with school, I got a great job and my finances are looking nice for someone my age, I still keep in touch with some great friends I’ve had for a long time, and overall I’m pretty damn happy with my place in life right now.  It feels great to be at a point in life where you literally have no stress and no drama.  As far as the girl goes…she ended up marrying that same dude.  Updates from my aunt have been quite a bit less numerous since the wedding, so I’m guessing its not so sunny in paradise anymore, but either way I really don’t care.  I don’t hate the girl and  honestly don’t want to see bad s~~~ happen to her, I’m just indifferent to her and would prefer to hear nothing over good or bad news.

When I was younger, a dirty old man I knew once asked me if I knew why women closed their eyes during sex.  I did not know.  He told me, because women hate to see a man having a good time.  At the time I just thought it to be a silly joke and didn’t think much into it, but looking back on it now, that man packed more wisdom into 2 lines than most college professors can pack into a semester.  Live well men…when take care of yourself, and always give yourself goals to work towards, it makes it easy to look forward and have no regrets.  It also starts a chain reaction…as living well makes it easy to have a big old smile on your face while you look ahead, and since we know women hate to see a man having a good time, it p~~~es off women that are unable to control you, which in turn makes your smile a bit bigger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And, further more, F~~~ you if you think I’m not supposed to expression my opinion.

You are enitled to your opinion, so am I to mine

Anonymous wrote:

Now, another thing. My wife WORKS. You didn’t hear me say anything about putting women back in the home, necessarily.

Good for her. But tell me, if my knowledge on Islam is correct, she has NO OBLIGATION in sharing ANY of her gains with the household, does she? In the other hand, you, being the man, being the one IN CHARGE, is SOLELY RESPONSIBLE for maintaining yourself AND YOU WIFE. Meaning that YOUR EARNINGS have to be spent on food, shelter, basic needs, for BOTH OF YOU, under Islam, is that correct? She can keep her earning though. So tell me again how is this beneficial for men, to have women with NO RESPONSABILITY WHATSOEVER…

Anonymous wrote:

Once you label somebody, then your BRAIN suddenly becomes DEAD, and you can’t hear a damned thing the person is saying, because your BRAIN is on AUTOMATIC, and all you can here is your LABEL.

Thank God for the “quote” button I guess then.

Anonymous wrote:

What is your alternative, hum?

For what? Women’s problem? I don’t know if you heard it, but I am going my own way. I could care less what happens with women, just don’t make MEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM.

Anonymous wrote:

You either DO go back to where you have FULL control [and I don’t buy this s~~~ about women wanting to MAKE US SLAVES by having us do “all the work.” We never DID “all the work,” in the FIRST goddamned place, and you’re LYING, or stupid, or simply from another PLANET, if you believe that s~~~. Women TOO worked–in the house, AND within the community.

Back in the day, sure, taking care of the house was a more or less equivalent work. But nowadays? Really? With all the technology available taking care of the house can be done in a few HOURS! You want to compare working 60 to 80 hours a day to THAT? Even a behind the desk job takes 40 hours a week. If I want a maid, I can hire a cleaner. I can cook my own food. That is the equivalent work you are talking about? Maybe you should get out from your cave and come to the city, we have running water and electricity here.

Anonymous wrote:

LISTEN!!!!! In the past, there was the tradition of women who were at home to VOLUNTEER, at VFW places, YMCAs, etc., and this TRULY helped the community TO FUNCTION!! The kids could be monitored, WHICH THEY NEED, unless you don’t understand that kids NEED monitoring. There existed–in every neighborhood [or maybe you’re just too young to know the history], a SYSTEM of society that WORKED. It worked

Ok Navvy, I am listening. The past is the f~~~ing PAST. What worked before doesn’t work NOW! As for kids, yeah they need monitoring until a certain AGE! Then they spend most of the day in freaking SCHOOL, DAYCARE, you NAME IT. And what WOMEN DO on this meantime? This is the EXACT EXCUSE women use not to work anymore. It’s all about the children, right? If your life has to be SACRIFICED for it, so be it. But not THEIR LIFE. Besides, kids will be KIDS! You want to be an helicopter DAD? That’s not healthy for the kid EITHER. Age does not necessarily correlates to WISDOM. You are much older than me, and is speaking much more CRAP.

Anonymous wrote:

Now, that’s ONE way. Another way is to find you somebody that hasn’t been infected, LIKE I DID.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure your wife is really happy having you as a safety net, just in case things go sour. And all she has to do is stroke your ego and tell what a big man you are, right? If you are up for this, good for you, but some of us can see throught the smoke and mirrors. If anything happen to your ability to provide, I wonder how long your wifey will be around, even when she is not INFECTED with feminism.

Anonymous wrote:

And, GODDAMNIT, yes, I DO blame the men, because I’m OLD ENOUGH to know the history, and NOT because I READ about it, but because I WAS THERE, and I’ve seen the transition. Yes, MEN…F~~~ED…UP. MEN created the system that exists. The women DID NOT have the power to create this s~~~!! The had virtually NO power, up through the 1950s, and THAT IS A FACT.

The only way MEN f~~~ed up is because they didn’t charge WOMEN with the RESPONSABILITIES that comes with the RIGHTS they have. In a nutshell: MEN LIKE YOU are the ones that f~~~ed up. The women had no power to create s~~~, but also NO RESPONSABILITIES. And you do wonder my they behave like children? Because people LIKE YOU TREAT THEM LIKE CHILDRED.

Anonymous wrote:

But, right at WWII, the MEN gave them that power, by putting them in the factories and letting them LOOSE to become the WHORES [which some of you have openly complained about here] that they now ARE. I don’t give a S~~~ if you’re “tired” of the truth. If you’re simply ignorant, DON’T BLAME ME.

I am not tired of the truth. I am tired of GYNOCENTRIC BULLS~~~ like YOURS! You blame men for women having to work to survive? You blame men GIVING THEIR LIVES FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE was a GREATER GOOD for the lack of self-control of WOMEN? You are a goddamn MANGINA.

Anonymous wrote:

Is your solution to just screw women, and then, when you’re done, throw them away? GUESS WHAT? When you do that, YOU’RE MAKING THE S~~~ WORSE!!

Worse HOW? Because I am not worshipping pussy like YOU DO? Because I am seeing sex for the worth it really has? Maybe some couple of hundred dollars (if even that) instead of my WHOLE FREAKING LIFE and EARNINGS? You sound thirsty.

Anonymous wrote:

Dude, you can’t tell me S~~~! I’ve lived a LOT of life

So what? Just because you lived LOGER DOESN’T mean you took the MOST OF IT. I rather live a short happy life, than a long, miserable life, under the ISLAM.

Anonymous wrote:

And I don’t see YOU offering ANY solutions. I have another REAL solution, but I suspect that half of you ain’t ready for it

Yeah, your solution is men jump into the fire, so women can live and breed. And if you think we are not ready, than you are more than welcome to F~~~ OFF.

Anonymous wrote:

One last thing: The SYSTEM that was constructed, pre-1960s, and that WORKED was constructed BY MEN. If you’re twenty, or something, then try to find a relative of yours who was around pre-1960s, so you can find out what the deal was. Because you are WOEFULLY incorrect in your view that women were just laying on their asses, being waited on by their men SLAVES. No, No, NO!!

You are freaking retarded. Men made the system in order to benefit the “tribe”, the women and children, at HIS EXPENSE. MEN are selfless by F~~~ING NATURE when it comes to WOMEN ANC CHILDREN. And even on the past where the gender roles were somehow more equal, MEN STILL GOT THE SHORTER END OF THE STICK. Who was supposed to go out and do the HEAVY LIFTING? The KILLING and the DYING? Is this really compare to STAYING HOME AND COOKING, or doing LAUNDRY, even before TECHNOLOGY? No, but I admit it was closer. Nowadays?!? We don’t have to kill or die as much, but we still have to SACRIFICE OUR TIME on this EARTH. And what WOMEN has to do? Put the plates on the dish washer, the clothes on the laundry machine and send the kids to school. If this seems equivalent to you, you really need to move closer to the CITY!

Anonymous wrote:

If anything, IT WAS THE OPPOSITE. The men worked their asses off, and when they came home, their s~~~ was RIGHT! Their wives attended to them PROPERLY, as they SHOULD have. And the s~~~ had ZERO to do with “gender roles,” quite frankly.

Are you trying to say women were OPPRESSED?!?! REALLY?!?! And how do you think this has anything to do with gender roles?!? Men have greater upper body strength and our bodies are more fit for physical labor. HOW DO YOU THINK THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DIVISION OF LABOR BETWEEN SEXES?!?

Anonymous wrote:

I’M working my ass of, and you, the woman, better put contribute something TOO. And THAT’S how it was. They took care of the kids, the neighbor’s kids (when needed), YOU and YOUR needs (food, clothing, etc.), and all that s~~~, AND IT WORKED.

One again, you are living in the past, in a cave, OR BOTH. We have restaurants, we have shopping malls, we have freaking INDUSTRY! COME TO THE CITY!

Anonymous wrote:

But when the ’60s came, by then SOCIAL ENGINEERING [You’ll have to figure out on your own, because you’ve p~~~ed me off, and until I cool down, I’m taking a break], conducted by PRIVATE ENTITIES, begin ATTACKING the structure that we’d set up. And it was MEN that began to attack it!!!

Yeah yeah, Rockefellar were behind feminism and they wanted to destroy the nuclear family and Oh, the conspiracy. So, just for the sake of argument, let’s say this is true. HOW DOES THAT bail females out, when they do FREAKING AGENCY! I don’t care who you are, if someone tell you to do something that you don’t think it is right (like abandon my family because… feminism) the final is STILL YOURS, and you should still face THE CONSEQUENCES of your ACTIONS! WHY DO YOU THINK with WOMEN it would be different?!? That doesn’t change the fact WOMEN have AGENCY and should be held RESPONSIBLE for their ACTIONS instead of being TREATED like CHILDREN the way YOU want to TREAT THEM.

Anonymous wrote:

And they either didn’t know what the consequences would be, or they didn’t CARE

Oh, the poor bastards.

Anonymous wrote:

The GODDESS of feminism, Gloria Stenem was in the employ of THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY. This is NOT a conspiracy theory, either. It’s pure fact, AND she openly admitted it, with ease. She was mentored by MEN–BY MEN. She was PAID by MEN. She was DIRECTED by MEN. And she carried out the ASSIGNMENT that was GIVEN to her BY MEN.

Did MEN hold a gun on the head of EVERY FEMALE and told them to ADHERE FEMINISM? I don’t think so. This is irrelevant. WOMEN are doing what they are doing on their own free WILL. Or are you going to say that MEN have the capacity of MIND CONTROL WOMEN…. Wait a minute, are you f~~~ing defending the PATRYARCHY?!?!?

Anonymous wrote:

Naw, Jack, you ain’t getting away with tryna put ALL the blame on the women that YOU CREATED!! Just face it. Why? Because if you CAN’T face it, guess what? You’re gonna F~~~ UP AGAIN!

Yeah man, its all the Patriarchy, right?

Give me a f~~~ing break, you chump.

 

[FrankOneParticipant]

John Doe wrote:

FrankOne wrote:
Really? Let’s say all the resources/money spent on the witch doctors, priests, imams, cult leaders, temples, burnt offerings, pyramid building, Crusades, etc, across human history, instead went to technological research?
This is a statement of faith about technology solving all of man’s problems. A not to far off philosophy would be that “power” alone solves everything. However I do not see how technology can be the source of all solutions when one is stuck with the question of how/when/were/etc. to use it. A moral code/ethics/philosophy/etc. cannot come from technology alone. To create something and expect it to give you answers/power/etc would be the modern day equivalent of carving a human figurine out of wood and then asking it for the answers for everything. In many aspects we are already there. There is no evidence, objectively speaking, of technology completely solving a problem that does not snowball into something else or remains unsolved.

I’m not arguing technology solves all problems; I am arguing vaccines, clean water, sanitation, antibiotics, and other technologies have reduced infant mortality and improved human health and well-being.  If resources had been devoted to science and technology rather than cults and charlatans (a.k.a. religion), it is not unreasonable to suggest that advancement would be more rapid in health and medicine.  If more young people become mechanics and engineers, do you think technology will advance more rapidly than if they go to Bible college and study theology?  Remember, faith is a ‘complete trust or confidence in someone or something’.  Some technologies have been used to kill people or control them; others increase our freedom of expression and reach.  A gun is good to me if it defends me against deadly aggression, but bad if used in a school shooting.  I never argued that technology can provide a morality or that I had faith in it, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there.  In a world of limited resources, we may find that we cannot sustain current population levels at a high standard of material living forever – and this is the sort of problem technology causes.  Producing electricity from coal generates particulate emissions and damages the land (e.g. strip mining) – so there are often negative consequences to technologies.  We’ve eliminated many of our forests and species.  I disagree completely about carving a figurine; nobody I know expects moral answers from scientific inquiries, and I know many physical and chemical researchers, as well as ‘technologists’ such as myself (Engineer).
As for ‘ill read’, I don’t ever consider myself completely educated on any subject.

John Doe wrote:

#1- a circle and a disk are two separate things. They are even diffentiated. #2- “like” a tent and a tent are two separate things. #3-and water is not stored in the sky? (clouds, moisture, etc) Alot of your critism both above and prior are due to the bible being written in a language that does not parrellel much of the western (mostly german) philosophy that dictated much of the western world. You are looking at the bible and saying that because it is not written in a way a machinist would understand it then it is primarly false. This is an important point, as a philosophy is dictating what you deem as “wrongs”. I am guessing you are a machinist of some form or another and because of this you see the world in a certain way. Am I wrong? I am not degrading machinists or those of technical trades though.

This is probably a good point to discuss.  I’m an engineer, not a machinist, so yeah, I’m overly analytic.  Biblical cosmology clearly indicates a geocentric cosmology; the 11 ‘theologian’ qualifiers in Galileo’s trial and the Doctor of the Church were unanimous on that one.  The firmament or raqia is a solid structure; the windows in the firmament opened causing the flood.  Of course, all that is non-sensical.  That’s why Calvin came up with the ‘doctrine of accommodation’, basically, saying god is unknowable and attributing all this to language issues.  PI=3.  Same deal.  If the Bible is divinely inspired you have a lot of errors and contradictions you have to explain away.  Ex-Mormons call it the ‘shelf’; when the ‘shelf’ of contradictions accumulates and finally falls over, they quit the cult.

John Doe wrote:

Are you disagreeing with scripture because it is the cultural norm? Is your faith in technology and man’s will because of the cultural norm? What about the evidence to the contrary? Because you are stuck in an odd position, because if all scripture was not divinely inspire (written by man alone) you are acknowledging the source of your problems (people) as the solution to them all.

1: No, the cultural norm in North America is to believe in Christianity.  2: As discussed previously, I don’t have ‘faith’ in technology and man’s will.  See definition of faith above.  3: No, I never argued Man was infallible…

John Doe wrote:

FrankOne wrote:
My point is, when one MONOTHEISTIC religion dominates, it typically bans all others.
Really?….. You know, historically speaking, you are wrong. But you would also have to criticize athiest governments also where is that criticism? I could say the same about agnostic governments, but those don’t exist because a leader cannot be clueless about everything.

Am I wrong?  How were non-Christians treated in Europe?  Were there pogroms against the Jews for centuries under Christendom?  Witches?  Heretics?  Schismatics? Spanish and Portugese inquisitions are just made up?  Crusades too?    Don’t get me wrong; Muslims behaved similarly when and where THEIR monotheistic religion dominated.  There have been few atheistic governments; typically they banned competing religions for the same reason Catholics didn’t want schismatics; they were a threat to their power.  I find religious totalitarianism objectionable just as I find secular totalitarianism objectionable.  I don’t know what an ‘agnostic’ government is – maybe you mean anything that ISN’T a theocratic State?  In any event, secular governments allow individuals to practice their faith or lack thereof largely without intervention.  Monotheistic Theocracies typically do NOT historically.

John Doe wrote:

FrankOne wrote:
It is not permissible for a religion’s doctrine to ever be WRONG about anything.
If you want me to defend every religion I am not. I am defending Catholicism, so it would be better if you focus your efforts on that. With that being said, you are correct. Which is why I will bring up this example article:

I don’t expect someone who is an atheist relative to all religions but one, to defend the others that contradict theirs.  Has there been ‘developing doctrine’ in the Catholic Church?  Of course, Pope John Paul II said slavery is ‘intrinsically evil’, but it sure wasn’t for almost 2000 years before that.  But I think we’ve beaten that horse to death.  The Church did a mega-flip-flop on Usury.  Before Vatican II’s ‘Declaration on Religious Freedom’ to appeal to modern sensibilities, the position was ‘error has no rights’.  Obviously there was no ‘Declaration’ in effect during the Inquisitions.
I’ve already stated science can and DOES change.  Relativity supplanted classical mechanics.  As for whether Pluto is a planet, as discussed in this link, something like that is merely a human definition; a mass above which a body constitutes a planet is defined.  Redefining it, doesn’t change the underlying laws of physics any more than if a planet is renamed.

John Doe wrote:

FrankOne wrote:
My point there was that none of these religions are more believable than any of the others, and that a World Religion now, was a ‘cult’ or ‘sect’ some time in the past when it had fewer followers.
And then you are stuck only believing what your eyes can see, so if your eyes trick you reality must not be real. Getting back to the prior point about “experiences” and “genetics” making you bias: Well if that is the case then certain genes are more superior than others. You claimed there was a religious gene, but religion is wrong, so the gene must be wrong. However we are a biproduct of evolution. You do understand your understanding of the world (philosoph) makes no sense at all right? (assuming I look at it threw your perspective argument). So how can you say someone else makes no sense (when sense (reason) is what determines truth according to you) when you make no sense yourself? I get it, you will say we will eventually learn something new, but there is no evidence that we will stop learning, because there is no evidence that we can observe everything. So you are stuck on a premise of faith, however faith is irrational according to you. And we can only come to truth through reason. Do you understand my point? I say this objectively, criticize religion (Christianity specifically) all you want, but it comes off as “hate” (which may be a strong word) because your beliefs make even less sense. Its almost as if you have none of your own.

Certainly, my eyes may trick me – I’ve already discussed that.  Religion may have an evolutionary advantage – there are theories on that – that it improved cooperation.  I don’t view a ‘gene’ as ‘wrong’ as a gene isn’t a conscious actor.  Superior genes?  Well, one may make me more athletic, another may improve my mental acuity, several others may cause me to have Downs Syndrome or a heart defect.  I’m not sure what you are saying doesn’t make sense here.  And you did not address my question of why genes COULD impact religiosity if we have an externalized soul making moral choices with free will?  I definitely have beliefs based upon my values.  As I’ve indicated before, though, morality depends on one’s subjective experiences and genetics.  Reason isn’t going to determine which morality is ‘best’.  You can come to truth through reason about the physical world, but not about morality since it depends on subjective values.  If my genetics and experiences cause me to be or become a sociopath, I doubt I can reason my way out of it or you can reason me out of it.

John Doe wrote:

And history is suppose to be thrown out the window? The world is what people observed/lived in. Also to get back to a point (I don’t know if I mentioned, but should have) what proof exactly? LINKS

Biblical scholars generally agree the flood myth was taken from earlier Mesopotamian accounts.  Why do those accounts not include the monotheistic God?  Why does one story in Genesis say two of each animal, male and female were loaded up on the Ark and another part say 7 pairs of the ‘clean’ animals?  Since some animals are asexual, that doesn’t make sense either.  These are some of the hundreds of internal or self-referential contradictions within the holy Bible.  Scholars explain these by the flood myth being an amalgamation of two earlier narratives.  Think about it.  If saline SEA water flooded the earth for a year, how would plant life survive?  Even after hurricanes you have land that is no longer arable.  As stated previously, the majority of scientists do not believe a worldwide flood occurred.  Apologists will… apologize.  Or, to put it another way, I can give you several links to the flat earth society.

John Doe wrote:

And what prophecy is not observed? How can a prophecy be a prophecy and not be observed? God is omniscient remember? He sees what we see and knows what we see and what we don’t.

I already cited a couple… Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre and it would never be built again (strange how it’s populated), Egypt would become a barren wasteland… Since Nebuchadnezzar is dead he can’t destroy Tyre… Not as embarrassing as the religions that set an End Time Day & keep having to postpone it, but STILL…

John Doe wrote:

So yes in one respect only Catholics are saved, in another anyone can be saved, and in another non catholics are not saved. There is no “contradiction”. If I am not clear enough in this point, you will have to say so.

To clarify this point as it relates to comments you made elsewhere in this thread about salvation of those ‘ignorant’ of the Roman Catholic Church.  Evidence of salvation only through the Church?  That was THE doctrine pre-Vatican II.  Taught to the Catholic Americans in the Baltimore Catechism, later replaced by the CCC post-Vatican II.  The doctrine is called ‘EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS’.  Look it up.  Admittedly, it’s softened up considerably since Vatican II.  A typical quote from Pope Boniface represents the views for the last 6-700 years or so – and is echoed by many other Popes and ‘theologians’.
‘We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.’
I recognize the Church did Ye Old Flip Flop on this one as it hasn’t been politically correct to say everyone else is a schismatic (other denominations) and is going to hell anymore. You know, ‘no one survives outside the Ark’, and all that.  I can cite the dozens of Popes relating this belief, but just look it up… All those former Popes were just speaking metaphorically for the last 6-700+ years I suppose.  And so, when they ‘metaphorically’ executed people in their ‘metaphorical’ inquisition for Heresy, how do you explain that?  Division had to be squashed.  Anything else and the Church would lose temporal power – which it did with the schism of the Eastern Church AND the advent of Protestantism.  And the result was increased human freedom and transparency.. and even MORE criticism of the Mother Church…

John Doe wrote:

FrankOne wrote:
Morality is not the realm of concrete truths; you’re mixing up the physical world and the moral landscape.
Yes it is, as if morality is only subjective and I say it is not then by default I would be lying and therefore immoral. There are certain “non-changing” aspects of morality which are unavoidable. Saying morality is subjective does not save you from this, as you would be lying by making a concrete moral statement.

Only if lying is immoral in my morality system.  Seriously, a secular or philosophical morality can be defined by starting out with principles (values) and then deriving a system from it.  This will not be an ‘objective morality’ any more than a morality based on picking & choosing from the Bible is objective (remember slavery?).
What if I live alone in a cave or on a spaceship?  What ‘morals’ apply to me then?  What absolute morals apply to God?  To aliens or beings unlike us?  Must they also have the same objective morality?

At the risk of sounding crazy here…what are people’s thoughts on sleep paralysis (or any other sleep studies)? I know there’s some scientific explanations for it, and I’ve experienced it before, but it’s something far more terrifying to me than any nightmare, as I literally *feel* it most of the time. This past night was indeed the worst it’s EVER been.

After the first instance about 5:30 this morning (I only knew this because my cats woke me up about 5:00-5:10 this morning first, to which I fell asleep right after), I felt it happen a few more times. I had my alarm clock set for 7:00 AM, so this was a tad uninviting.

I was sleeping face down, and tried rolling over. I couldn’t. I had trouble breathing and it felt like something was sitting on me…definitely not one of my cats, though! My entire body was frozen, and I used all the strength I had to fight against it. After what felt like a VERY long struggle, I finally broke free of it.
Here it is 11:00 AM now. I have this extreme sense of depersonalization and fear as I sit at my work desk, and my chest is still very tight, almost as bad as it was when I couldn’t breathe this morning. I keep telling myself I’m awake and aware right now, but I can’t bring the world into focus, if that makes any sense.
At what point should I be concerned about this? Should I just let this go? When it’s happened before, I normally could. I’d remember being able to go just fine through the day, but I feel…VERY odd for some reason right now. I don’t feel “myself.”

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Hi Snake. Interesting you mention a “meaningful bond”… it’s like you took the words from my thought bubble and spoke them first.

I’m also compelled to believe it’s JUST not possible. Even the man who “games” his wife or girlfriend in order to “make it work”, to “highten her attraction”, to “keep her interested” …. is operating on a higher plane than she at all times. He is constantly translating what she “says” into what she “means”, he adjusts his responses, he does things he normally wouldn’t and this means – even within a relationship where she is content – HE remains alone.

Observe the recent Clooney marriage. A man who said he NEVER WOULD, and even bet Michelle Pfieffer and Nicole Kidman $20,000 that they were wrong. On his 40th birthday he sent the checks back and said “double or nothing for another 10 years?”.

This guy FINALLY meets ONE unicorn who stands out from all the rest. Good enough to throw all of his previous values, views, and women away.. She’s scopes, get. and earns the devotion of one the most desirable bachelors in the world. She beat out every other woman who would have given their eye teeth to marry Clooney.

And what does she f~~~ing do? Gets jealous and blames him for having millions of options.
SHE RESENTS THE MAN — FOR WHAT SHE WANTED FROM HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If MEN LIKE THAT and billionaire’s wives are still disappointed, the “meaningful bond” is totally non-existent, even when she beats out every other female in your eyes. You can’t even be top-of-the-world famous / billionaire / movie star / oil tycoon and expect that s~~~.

I find this one of the most uplifting realities.

“Essentially, me being a loser has allowed me to be a winner. “
You just said a mouthful, my friend. Welcome to MGTOW.

---

Let’s translate “loser” from women-speak into English. “Loser” in woman-speak simply means a man who is smart enough to do things that are in HIS best interest.

• You don’t spend your hard-earned money on women – you are a loser
• You expect regular sex – you are a loser
• You are not interested in marriage – you are a loser
• You don’t want to be stuck with kids – you are a loser
• You don’t want to slave away 60 hours a week so a woman can buy a new SUV every year – you are a loser
• You prefer South American women who treat you better – you are a HUUGE LOOOSER

The alternative to “loser” is a pussyfied man, or simply a pussy. A pussyfied man does what a woman wants – he is a docile, controlled schmuck, who never questions anything, quietly pays for everything and never pesters her for sex. In other words, he is an “ideal husband”.

“Loser” is one of the biggest compliments you can possibly get.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[ExsliventxsParticipant]

Keith wrote:

Trying to have friendships with women has been the single biggest failure in my life.  I have finally admitted that I don’t want them as friends.  The main reasons, I believe, are as follows:

1.  They hate all the social activities I find enjoyable;

2.  They tend to think the hidden agenda is sex;

3.  They call most often when furniture needs to be moved, something needs to be fixed, lifted, or purchased;

4.  They surreptitiously try to point out all my flaws (in the beginning), then become more blunt as time drags on;

5.  They like to refer to my social interaction with my male friends as “necessary to feed the adolescent ego” and a covert expression of immaturity;

6.  Blame me for the 15 million years of oppression females have suffered at my hands, the hands of my forefathers and that which is yet to come from my progeny;

7.  Help me better “understand” that I am not really happy but deceiving myself with self-indulgent behavior;

8.  That I may be “selfish” because of my fierce independence which is “unhealthy”

9.  That I am narrow minded because the aforementioned self-indulgence has clouded my judgment;

10. That without some self-improvement I will ultimately be all alone in the world; These are just the highlights, but all this led me to wonder why any woman would bother with me, I am apparently nothing but a hot mess and clearly not worth the trouble.  If I was them, I was just avoid me, that would teach me a lesson.

1. Because they’re women, so don’t bring them along on your activities. All they usually do is complain and ruin it for everyone anyway.

2. That’s because modern day feminism has taught them that men are one dimensional characters. Women’s only agenda –> more shoes. See what I did there? That’s f~~~ing annoying.

3. That’s because you’re not a friend, you’re their worker bee. They’re strong and independent until they choose not to be, and call you on the phone for some free labor. Screw that. Cash or Sex or If they’ve helped you move before, return the favor. Otherwise they can f~~~ off, they won’t be paying your chiropractor for your back problems 2 years later.

4. That’s because the more time they spend pointing out your flaws, the less time you have to notice their flaws. It also makes them feel they’ll get the upper hand on you psychologically. Women that do this are just annoying bitches really.

5. That’s because when you’re with your male friends you’re actually having fun, and not listening to their ceremonious bitching. When you’re with your male friends they can’t ask you to do free s~~~ for them. Doing free s~~~ for women is a “man up”. Screw that, since when do the vaginas get to define MY gender? They don’t.

6. Yes, they can have reparations from me. They get their reparations in the form of spending most of my tax dollars on their abortions and bc pills. Then I avoid these type of women religiously so I can’t oppress them anymore. They get their cats, I get my car, house, jet ski, PC master race, vacations etc.

7. Women would know this, because they’re constantly indulging themselves. The difference is, you KNOW what makes you happy. They indulge and they STILL don’t know what makes them happy. So they’re miserable and believe that you’re miserable too, when you’re very happy. Besides, they can’t see if the next indulgent behavior of ordering you around will make them happy, if you’re busy doing other things.

8. Well feminism teaches women to be strong and independent. Tell them you’re just following what any feminist would do. That’ll throw them for a loop.

9. How is some t~~~ going to define what has “clouded” your vision? Really? Does she think shes f~~~ing yoda? This is just more mind games to get you back on her worker plantation. If you ask her to uncloud it, she’ll just spout a bunch of s~~~ that results in less of #5. Run.

10. Women love what they consider a “fixer upper” . Make no mistake, there’s not actually anything wrong with you, you’re just not working on HER plantation. They want you to “man up” by getting down on your knees and licking her boot. Doing her activities, moving her s~~~, spending time with her, spending money on her and blah blah blah. She’s just a parasite trying to latch on. That’s the ultimate truth.

 

Good luck.

[BeerParticipant]

I’ve been noticing this for years.  All the married, middle class families I know with children under 18 all have 0 to 2 kids.  These couples are all middle to upper middle class…I’d say with between 80-300k income.  Single moms on the other hand…all between 1-5 kids, and every single one of them on some sort of assistance program.  This is going to create a huge problem…because now we end up with literally 2 kids who grow up thinking living off the state is the norm for every 1 kid who grows up thinking working hard and taking care of your own is the norm.  I have nothing wrong with helping the poor, I completely understand s~~~ happens and sometimes people need a bit of help, but currently society isn’t helping the poor, we are rewarding the stupid.

If you’d like a good idea of how a society like this functions, just look at inner cities, it has been going on there for decades.

On a side note…this is why I have been putting as much of my retirement savings as possible into ROTH accounts, a post tax brokerage account, and in the future more real estate for the tax benefits rental properties offer.  The only pre-tax savings I do is enough to max my match out for my 401k.  I’m 31 now, and I’m more than willing to gamble that taxes will be higher 20-30 years from now when I want to retire because of our national debt and constantly growing cost of social programs.

What really scares me is how unprepared for retirement baby boomers are, and they had a lot higher marriage rate than my generation, and spent their prime in a much better economic era.  Even unhappily married/never divorced couples had the chance to attack life with dual incomes and work out a schedule without having to pay for child care.  When I look at younger people…I see a lot of men who can’t save much for retirement because they are getting massacred by child support, and a lot of women with a crappy job who live high on the hog for 10-20 years milking child support and public assistance money.  Once that ends, you have a bunch of men approaching 50 who can finally start saving for retirement but really lose out on the power of compounding, and a bunch of women approaching 50 who have nothing saved because women can’t plan ahead, just saw their income get cut down to less than half, and generally have a sucky job because they never imagined they wouldn’t be able to hook another sucker before the gravy train ended and would have to provide for themselves.  Someones gonna have to foot the bill for them.

[KahnParticipant]

OH COME ON! This is the 2nd thread this week about f~~~ing unicorns/NAWALTS. We need a rule against this s~~~ or something.

I mean, I had my own “Maybe there’s a NAWALT out there somewhere” phase, but I didn’t go around playing “pin the tail on the donkey” with it, trying to imagine every girl I met as a NAWALT. No, I was realistic and if anything my standards WENT UP. But you know what? I found a f~~~ing “NAWALT” or what I thought was one, and boy how wrong I turned out to be.

NAWALTS DO NOT EXIST.

and even if they did, you would never find one. You know why? Not because they’re rare (which, if they exist, they are). But because SO MANY WOMEN ARE GOOD AT PRETENDING TO BE NAWALT.

Someone (his name was ****) had a good explanation of this the other day:

I think this should be a topic for a thread in itself because a lot of people don’t seem to get it.
Here’s the simple formula from Einstein’s observation:
NAWALT (+/-) OWNERSHIP = AWALT
His observation: Men marry women hoping they’ll never change, they always do! Women marry men hoping they can change them they never do.
In very young, or emotionally or mentally challenged women, just emotional ownership will flick the switch. Just tell her you love her or profess exclusiveness or show excessive mangina activity,,,and then sit back and watch the real woman emerge.For some, it’s just moving in together that implies ownership. It triggers the change Bridezillas will trigger on an engagement ownership. All they’re thinking of is the wedding day. Many even admit afterwards it was all they were thinking of. Most trigger on the wedding day Some will NAWALT past the wedding day to the birth of the first child to trigger.Really smart ones like Wendi Deng (Rupert Murdoch’s Ex) will hit the 10 year mark ownership for maximum alimony before triggering monkey branching. Other variants of ownership triggers are as bizarre as the guy giving up drinking, finally. I’ve seen this one in real life and once here on the forums, both after many years and children. It’s a type of emotional ownership.
In all cases, once ownership is achieved, they no longer have any romantic interest in the male what so ever. Romantic interest in the male isn’t good after ownership is achieved for evolutionary survival reasons that may be a bit too much for this particular thread. Though, it’s still biologically beneficial for the woman and offspring if the male retains romantic interest. This NAWALT stage is partly contrived but it’s mostly Darwinian biology. Because it’s universal I don’t think women have that much control over it.
NAWALTS are real. Their lil hearts really do go pitter patter at the sight of their love, even the thought of their love. The chemicals in their body can now be measured empirically. Research is going into replicating those chemicals with a “Love Drug” But it’s just a phase that human females have evolved to secure a resource, which was always necessary throughout evolution of Sapiens.All they do after the NAWALT phase is sociopathic “improve” or exploit the resource (male) to the maximum. Hence always trying to “change” a guy for the better (in their eyes). If they have an opportunity to gain a better resource, they’ll take it, hence hypergamy.
As Lawrence Shannon observed in “The Predatory Female” He describes it beautifully. Download his free book and go to page 16. He calls it The Chameleon Syndrome, Substitute NAWALT = Chameleon, and OWNERSHIP = Subdue male. One thing no one seems to have noticed is that the change happens virtually overnight.
It might make a great thread to see if guys remember the exact time their NAWALTS turned to AWALTS.

P.S. I forgot to mention the minus sign in the equation (-). This is when the female finds out she isn’t going to own anyone or anything. Sit back with popcorn (at a safe distance) and watch the NAWALT explode into an AWALT.

I don’t know that I agree with him 100% but it’s a pretty good explanation, and it may bring you some peace, in the meantime… If you must go looking for NAWALTs… most of the guys here don’t really want to hear about it because for the most part… we don’t care. And as a warning, your looking for trouble if you go looking for a NAWALT, women will pick up on this and exploit it. Because that’s what women do: exploit and manipulate.

I just celebrated my 50th birthday last month and I have been joyfully single for my entire life.  I come from a large family and have 4 brothers and 3 of them have been single all their lives as well and 1 brother who mistakenly married at age 46 (10 years ago).  However, he is planning his divorce even as I write this post.

I decided to stay single because I watched my friends get married one by one and as luck would have it, I had a ringside seat and was best man in four weddings over the years.  Each and every one of my friends exclaimed their surprise and shock that the woman they married apparently ceased to exist following the wedding ceremony.  I feared this outcome and decided I should “wait and see”.

Each of my friends settled down and traveled the marriage road.  Slowly I watched the distance between us get larger as they faded away because of family obligations and I imagined that they married their “best friend” (yeah, right).  The times when I would try to arrange social gatherings (just guys, no wives), it would take a committee meeting for any of them to get “permission” and most times the requests were “denied” by the “best friend”, but I remained faithfully vigilant and supportive.

I watched each of them go through the money struggles, the child care struggles, the employment struggles, listened to the bitching about no sex, no love, no respect, in-laws, blah, blah, blah.  But these were my friends, so I remained faithfully vigilant and supportive.

Eventually, my friends wives started to bad mouth, insult and belittle me behind my back.  I was referred to as “irresponsible”, “self-centered”, “egocentric”, “unhappy” (that is wrong for sure), “emotionally unavailable”, “out of touch”, “probably a f~~” and my very very very favorite “an adolescent with a checkbook“.   I was perplexed that I was perceived this way because I was always generous, helpful, available and supportive.   I did ponder these assessments for a very long time. . . .

It finally occurred to me that I was perceived this way by the wives because my unbridled happiness was causing them problems in their relationships.  If I wanted something, I purchased it, this included boats, cars, houses, jet skiis, 4 wheelers, more houses, more cars and I never flew coach.  I NEVER asked permission for anything from any woman and as it turns out, this was problematic and was the reason why the distance between me and my friends became so vast.

Admittedly, I did weaken in my late 30’s and consider getting married, so I locked my beagle and my girlfriend in the trunk of the car for an hour.  When I opened the trunk, the beagle was happy as hell to see me, she was p~~~ed big time.  I kept the beagle and ditched the chick since she didn’t “understand me”.  (Bonus:  The dog loves baseball, she didn’t).

Many years have flown by and one by one each of my friends is now divorced.  My brother is the last straggler, but it won’t be long now.  As each of them has become suddenly single, things have returned to normal.  We go out, we drink, we laugh, we swear, we fart, we travel, we attend all major sporting events, we never ask for permission and we make no apologies.

It is true, everything that is old is new again.

Keith

 

ONCE UPON A TIME there was a man who never found a wife and he lived happily ever after. The End.

[Executor MaxwellParticipant]

Indeed I’d second BrainPilot’s suggestion. I’ve had a number of general feelings along those lines myself.

The advancement of online MGTOW space has certainly helped a lot in enabling the spread of knowledge that has been effectively blocked for some time now, and the community affirmations certainly help give enough confidence to drop a red pill here and there on occasion.

Vector’s case was certainly a treat where we had someone who realized they had an immediate need for knowledge happened upon the very place that had the answers he needed. I’m just waiting for that final confirmation post of his to crack open the champagne.

But if we can put together a library with organized explanations, answers and corresponding evidence that really shows what going on it would give a collection that could be pointed to in order to help young men along. And once it’s there, if it’s good enough young men would be likely to share it among their friends and with the strength of Opt-out-culture as fertile ground MGTOW could spread rapidly.

I’d like to add and extra thank you to KeyMaster and the others that put this place together and keep advancing it. The advancement of this place put’s a little extra spring in my step.

[DarthWParticipant]

Congrats Vector on your new freedom.  And welcome to the greatest lifestyle ever.  I wish I had found this path at your age.

Keep doing what you’re doing.  Keep reading and paying attention to the benefits of MGTOW if you feel yourself get wistful for relationships.  Listening to Tom Leykis is a great practice.  Reading about the relations~~~s and messes that men find themselves in here.

My brother was engaged in a similar situation to yours.  As he got closer to a wedding his fiance – who I always thought was nice, albeit a bit needy and naive – began thinking she had his name on the dotted line, so she began to show more and more red flags much like the “I will rule you” vein.  My brother  – who owned his own home in his early 20s, saves money like noone I know, and is extremely financially responsible – was told by her that he would begin handing over his paycheck to her, and she would decide how the money was spent.  Note that this bitch still lived in her parents house, hadn’t lived on her own ever, save for a brief stint in the Peace Corps she didn’t finish, and so hadn’t proven she could live independently at all.   My brother began to wonder a bit…. Further, she insisted that she and my brother move into the  same house as her parents to “save money” which would also mean that the drama and debts of her deadbeat older brother would become part of my brother’s new marriage.  My brother protested, saying “I don’t want to live with your parents.  Do you want my mom to move in with us?”  To which she replied, “Of course not, but my parents are different.”  Obviously, she was interested only in her needs…..and so my brother began to wonder some more.  They went to premarital counseling a couple months before the wedding, where she revealed that she “knew better about how a relations~~~ should work than my brother, after all he’s a man.”  My brother started getting very anxious with a wedding date looming, guests planning to visit from out of town, etc.  He lost a lot of weight, began seeing the mess awaiting him and yet felt guilty to run thinking marriage was somehow a noble thing.  A couple weeks before the wedding he told her in counseling that they needed to postpone to work out some of these plans she had for him.  She was not happy about it but agreed…or appeared to agree.  Within a few days, she was already dating another guy – mind you my brother only postponed the planned nuptials hoping they could work things out because, at the time, he thought he still wanted to marry her, and yet…..  Once she told him she was seeing this other guy – probably trying to spark jealousy thinking my brother would capitulate in fear of losing her – POS that she is – my brother said “Adios!”  The drama ensued, much like you’ve seen:  attempts at guilt, claims she would change, etc.  However, her last card played proved to my brother that she was nothing but a dragon ready to chew him up and spit him up out only to meet her needs.  She only wanted his resources.

It doesn’t sound like you’re having too rough a time, and that’s great.  I hope that continues.  My brother really wrestled with his decision for a while.  But the bitch occasionally would try to contact him, even though she married some fool soon after their wedding cancellation.  He never really understood why.  She’d try to mention some new house she bought, to which my brother said “I don’t care.  I owned a house long before I dated you.”  She’d mention she and her hubby moved to a new city, to which my brother told her, “How about I call your husband and tell him you’re still contacting me?”  And finally, the last time she tried he told her: “Pretend I’m dead, and never contact me again.”  He didn’t try to contact her.  For some reason she couldn’t get him out of her head, and perhaps in her unhappy marriage she thought my brother was the one who got away.  Your bitch may as well, and if she does remember the “I rule you” comment, and her manipulation, and her riding of 1,000 c~~~s – some of which she probably rode while on all these business trips.

If she tries to get with you again.  Always remember the she, like my brother’s ex fiance’ is a self-centered, manipulative, and likely cheating whore who wants to control you.  And stay MGTOW.

 

I’m new to this forum but not entirely new to the “club”, for want of a better word. I’m a 40 year old man in the mid-west United States. I joined the Marine Corps right out of high school. When I left I was dating this girl I went to school with who was a year younger than I was. We knew each other for awhile but only recently started dating. This was about as serious of a relationship as I had been in my all of 18 years. We decided to try to stay together despite my career choice, which I knew would be difficult for both of us. Well on one of my visits home, she got pregnant. She was supposedly on the pill, but you know how that goes. Now I knew she wanted to have kids at some point and I wasn’t really sure about it, but I damn sure didn’t want to have any at 19. I was not about to be the “bad guy” and try to talk her into an abortion or adoption though.

We had planned to get married at some point, but once there was a kid in the picture I put the brakes on that. The military is not a good place for someone who is married and has kids. She was not happy about it and the stress of being in a long distance relationship took it’s toll. We broke up and got back together a few times over my four years in the military. When I got out and came back home I started doing the whole visitation thing with my son. We ended up getting back together and moving in together. She still wanted to get married and I guess I figured well why not. We already had a kid and lived together so what difference does a piece of paper make.

Well after awhile married life sucked. We worked opposite shifts because we couldn’t afford day care. We hardly saw each other, and when we did we argued over stupid s~~~. Sex life went from fun and adventurous to boring to just too much trouble with a kid knocking on the door all the time. Everyone was miserable. After about 8 years of this we gave up. She took the kid and moved in with her parents and I got my own apartment in the city. Neither of us were perfect and I made my share of mistakes no question about it. Married life wasn’t for me. I just couldn’t deal with her constant insecurity and accusations. Every time I tried to do anything she would complain about not being involved, and then when I would try to involve her, she would decline. We actually got along better after we split up to be honest because we weren’t in each others face all the time. After a few years living apart though it was getting to be obvious that staying in contact with her wasn’t good for either of us, especially her. My son was now in his teens and it really didn’t even make sense to have him come and visit me and his grandparents when he would probably rather be out with his friends. After the divorce was final and all the paperwork signed, we just all stopped talking. Now my ex-wife could have dropped the hammer on me for child support but she didn’t, she never stopped me form seeing my kid, and as far as I know never dragged him into our problems. For that I’ll at least give her some credit because I’ve seen what some women are capable of. I’ve had some other situations with women that have been completely catastrophic, but I’ll leave that for other posts.

Once I was single again I made a few decisions about my life. No more marriage, no more kids, no more live-in girlfriends, and no more giving the government any more control over my life than they already have. Now I had heard the term MGTOW here and there, but didn’t really know much about it. I have a long standing hated of modern feminism, which I won’t go into the reasons why since I’d just be preaching to the choir here. The last thing I wanted was to join the male version of some dumb s~~~ like that. I don’t really like movements, causes, or campaigns either so I figured this was just one of those. Once I actually read more about it and started listening to some men talk about it, I realized this was something I had been living already anyway. I figured if I could help some people avoid the mistakes I made, then it would be worth sharing some of my stories.

[Sam RavenParticipant]

INTJ based on Myers Briggs. Although I do digital art, its not so much creative as done with a final objective in mind, with a general plan and pre-planning involved.

I also follow rational thinking, I have to use it in my course of researching the alternative media (like Infowars and jimstone.is ,the latter has also talked about the destruction of feminism although he’s more into the secret world of surveillance being a former NSA officer) to sort out the truth from the chaff.

A big part of my life has been about rejecting society and being disgusted with ‘mainstream’. Every time there’s a big trend, with a whole bunch of followers, I instinctively run in the other direction. Always been the outcast and had a lot of crap thrown at me for being that way.

I remember as far back as elementary school, the teacher recommended reading Roald Dahl to improve’s one’s English. Back then I was more interested in non-fiction magazines like National Geographic (been reading that magazine since I was 7). Nothing wrong with Roald Dahl and his books, but the way everyone kept talking about it, some of the damn teachers’ pets (future manginas and white knights, lol) repeaters of the teachers statement, reading it soon after, like it was some trend, my response was not to read at all.

[Sky-OParticipant]

Rape:

When a slut finally gets the kind of sex she has been wanting and does all of the things she has seen in porn movies.

Afterwards, she looks at her phone and sees a text from her boyfriend that she was cheating on and he told her he misses her and loves her.

Then what little amount of guilt she is capable of feeling consumes what is left of her soul considering it’s like the 9th time she has cheated on her boyfriend.

At that moment. . . . . . . And as a strategic and not so well planned out attempt at reconciling her behavior along with the fact she thinks she might get caught this time.

She decides she was ‘raped’.

 

[USMC0331Participant]

I was married for the better part of 10 years. Since we already had a child together it seemed like the logical thing to do because in the US you get certain benefits such as being able to put your spouse on your medical plan and file joint tax returns etc. My divorce was fairly easy compared to most but it really opened my eyes as to how little control you have over your own life. The paperwork spelled out in amazing detail how they could micro-manage your life even after the divorce is final. It amazed me how the courts think they can dictate virtually everything to you. If you don’t plan to have children, do not ever get married. You do not want to have to go to court to break up with someone and have some clown in a black dress tell you how much of your money you get to keep. I’m not one to tell men to stay away from women entirely, but I do tell them to be very careful and avoid the usual traps I got stuck in. If you tell a women you don’t plan to get married or have children and you will not financially support her, you will see how fast some of them disappear. Those are the ones you want to stay away from anyway.

Hello everyone…it feels great to have found this website and message board. Despite being in a bad marriage (are there good ones anymore?), I feel surprisingly optimistic. Why you may ask? Well I am planning my escape and looking forward to my future for the first time since I can remember.

The marriage:

Married for almost 20 years and we are both in our mid-40s and have a wonderful 14-year old son. I can’t remember the last time we had sex or had any type of intimacy but I don’t miss it at all to be honest. Like most women my wife is extremely selfish, including in the bedroom. I would be lucky to get 1 or 2 BJs a year but when we used to regularly have sex I would go down on her almost every time until she had an orgasm before intercourse. Makes me sick thinking about doing that now. Every single time I was the one initiating sex and finally just got tired of trying and making all the effort. I forced myself to eat her out a few months ago and discovered her pussy now stinks. She always used to have great feminine hygiene and I am too much of a nice guy to tell her about it.

Luckily we never have the huge “blow up” fights (I hate conflict) but is that better than almost no interaction at all? We are basically roommates now but I always try to be respectful to her despite her rudeness. To give my wife credit, she is a hard worker with a decent salary and surprisingly good at not spending much money despite being an entitled bitch. Her constant negativity though is what makes me not want to be around her…it is truly toxic. Despite having a nice house, no debt besides a mortgage, retirement savings, yearly vacations, she drives a nice car, $130 hair styling monthly, nice makeup etc. All her work friends tell her she is lucky to have a nice husband and great lifestyle.

Of course I take care of all responsibilities/maintenance for the house, yard, and cars….on top of that I also manage all the finances (which will benefit me). Embarrassingly like a little bitch I also do most of the domestic work like laundry, dishes, meals, and cleaning. I have never seen a slob like her in all my life but I want to keep a clean house for my son.

I also realize doing all the domestic work contributed to her losing respect for me despite good intentions on my part. She never attends any of my son’s school functions, parent/teacher meetings, volunteering, and medical appointments. All the other mom’s of his classmates joke they never knew my son had a mother…pretty much the truth. I never get a thank you for anything from her. On top of it all, I have an advanced degree and make quite a bit more than her.

My wife is so f~~~ing vain and it’s killing her now that her looks are fading. She is mixed ethnicity and was f~~~ing gorgeous when I met her and still looks pretty good for an older lady despite gaining a few pounds. Now I realize her looks are all that she brought to the table and her s~~~ty personality makes her so ugly to me. She also is a functioning alcoholic and drinks a bottle of wine almost every night. My fantasy is that some rich guy “steals” her away from me because she could still be a trophy wife to somebody.

My red pills:

• Her childhood friend divorced about 4 years ago and moved close to us.  My wife started going 4-5 nights/week instead of being with me and our child. I didn’t say much, because we never tried to control each other, but this was too much compared to me going to happy hour with co-workers one night/week.
• Two years ago I came down with a serious illness (30% fatality rate) and had to be admitted for 3 days. I ended up driving myself to the hospital and she visited me once for about 10 minutes over my stay. Interestingly this health scare was the 2nd best thing that ever happened to me (the birth of my son is the best thing). It opened my eyes about our marriage and most importantly made me realize how important my health is. I am in great shape now and
• My mother has severe dementia and is in hospice…she doesn’t have much time left. My wife never visits her or even asks me how she is doing. Even my friends and co-workers inquire every so often – this really p~~~es me off because my mother was always so kind and welcoming since the first time she met my wife.

Going my own way

• I am pleasant and respectful to her but could care less if I upset her. I don’t engage in her rant sessions and try to pacify her like I used to. Basically I don’t give a f~~~ about her feelings because she never cared about mine.
• Most upsetting to her is that I have completely ceased trying to have any type of sexual activity with her.  This forum has taught me in her head sex is what she controlled me with. This is seriously f~~~ing (pun intended) f~~~ing with her head…she thinks it’s because of her age and weight gain. I just tell her it feels like my libido has decreased.
• The past few months I have lost over 20 lbs thanks to a low carb diet and feel great about myself. I haven’t weighed 180 lbs and had a 33-inch waist in over 15 years. She doesn’t like this one bit and says I’m too skinny now and look bad. Last week she drunkenly admitted she doesn’t want to be the fat wife seen with the thin husband. Haha tables have turned bitch
• I go out with my three good friends anytime I want but limit it to about twice a week because of my son. They are great guys around my age and pretty much MGTOW without knowing it. They are professionals and good looking but have never been married or had kids. Instead of traditional dating they have a “bull pen” of a few ladies to have casual hook ups with.
• I don’t have any toys like motorcycles, a boat, or a sports car, etc. I don’t spend very much money on myself when it comes to clothes and entertainment. However my one passion is traveling, especially to Asia. There have been family trips and solo trips to places like Vietnam, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Korea, Cambodia, and Thailand. As mentioned earlier, one positive about our marriage was that we didn’t try to control each other and I could take some solo trips (2 weeks max) which gave me a huge sense of freedom taking a short break from carrying the entire load at home on top of work. I have 10-day trip planned to Laos in June and for the first time she is busting my b~~~~ over taking a solo trip.  I know this is due to her low self esteem and she is nagging me almost daily. I can tell she wants me to cancel but no f~~~ing way in hell that happens…I need this getaway for my sanity. I have finally learned to put my needs first over hers and how good it feels! I am back in control and she just needs to deal with it.
• Coming to the realization that I will be a great father no matter what happens in my marriage. I will never get married again nor get into a serious relationship…all my focus will be on myself and my son.

 

Anyway sorry to ramble…I never intended to write such a long introduction but hopefully that gives some insight to my situation. I have already been stashing cash away but will need more advice/input on how to prepare for my impending freedom and be posting questions in the appropriate forums. Thanks for reading!

 

 

 

Building the Ship; 1 economics

The first topic I would like to discuss is economics.

—–

Being the first topic and to grow interest I will explain why I have chosen to discuss such topics and take this path. The notion of society collapsing is on every persons’ mind. Most people including myself have no problem with this happening, empires rise and fall. I do not care if the ship sinks simply because the ship deserves it. However I liked the ship, it has sailed many waters and even though there is plenty of s~~~ I still had fun. Why should we care about making a new ship? After all if the ship sinks then people smarter than me will design a new ship then all will be fine again. In order for me to answer this question I have to know, who will design the ship? and what will the new ship be like? I love having a ship, it beats the hell out of swimming in the ocean. The ocean will swallow up a person rather quickly after all and that fear is what keeps bad leaders in power. However the problem is, is that it very likely that the new ship will be built almost identical to the old ship and that is something I would like to avoid. Even if the ship does not sink I do not want to continue maintaining it. Does any MGTOW want to live in a place in which he has little say in most aspects of his life, especially his labor? Designing a new ship is difficult, history can prove that, but it can and will be worth it. The United States is a perfect example and I am glad to have been born in it. We are not forced to design a new ship, democracies are great because it is a system that facilitates such change. The reason I propose the designing of a new ship is that I do not think that the system will be able to change sufficiently and in a timely manner for the proposals I have in mind.

As a new MGTOW I recently learned of gynocentrism and hypergamy. These traits can be changed if there is a greater alternative system that promotes different behaviors. Evolution tells us, as time passes traits that lead to success will be passed on to the next generation and behaviors can become traits. These traits will never change as long as it is successful and MGTOW is the result of these crude traits being successful. We have a choice, we can choose to stand still and die out or move forward. Which direction is forward is something that we have to be continuously thinking about, that is survival. When trying to change any basic trait you first have to satisfy the basic needs of a person, food, shelter, and clothing, in a different way. These basic needs are why men have created civilizations in the first place and are the things women try to gain from us with as little work as possible. Over time women went from negotiation to exploitation and with the advent of money there became a single item to acquire. This appears to be common knowledge for MGTOWs. Now the hard part is what traits do we want and how can we promote the behaviors to make those traits. Gynocentrism and hypergamy is something that is no longer necessary for our survival, but the systems based on these are still in place.

—–

The world has a fixed number of resources. This scientific fact means that we cannot have whatever we want. The allocation of these resources is essential to the well being of the population. Supply and demand is the old testament of economics. I like to call it the old testament not because it is old but because it was developed in a world that no longer exists, is not rooted in science, and has a sizable religious following. Science was applied later and just made a mess. The biggest problem I have with supply and demand is that it encourages the exploitation and destruction of resources. Although many laws have been developed to curb those tendencies, the behavior is still remains. Look at the bloated industrial machine that is now the United States and you can see how these behaviors reek havoc on the world and everything in it. I see this as the finally of supply and demand in economics. Sustainability is the only logical choice of a civilization. Why would you live in a place where food could disappear at any moment? The Earth has a limit to how many healthy sustainable lives can fit in it and supply and demand can not efficiently determine this limit. This limit changes with technology and with nature. When this limit is reached supply and demand will force us into self destruction where survival of the fittest returns. That is my observation of supply and demand. With such a result and one that can happen in 50 years how will we grow as humans? What is the point of growth if we might destroy ourselves when we peak?

I propose that all resources are divided equally among every person on the planet. These resources are not given away, but there is a max limit to the resources a single person can acquire, a planned division. This limit can be increased, but never decreased. With defined limits it is becomes possible to achieve equality and promotes recycling. These resources belong to that person at that person alone until they die. These resources passed down upon death to the new generation. It can be to their grandson/daughter, great grandson/daughter, or even to a the child of a good friend. Each person will have to prove that they are capable of living alone to gain a limit of land, such as a college degree. Each person can only have one child to their name, so a couple can have two children at most. People die by accident which makes free space. If the parents do not wish to make another child then a person can gain that spot through whatever means society wants to make, lottery is fair, and that person can add another child to their name. This is strategy makes living sustainable and easier as time progresses. Once the limit is hit our society will change from acquiring resources to using them more efficiently and that is the goal. It is also possible for people to pool resource limits together to do whatever they wish. For example space mining, 1000 people build a ship to collect beyond earth resources to raise their limit. They reach their new limit and trade then trade the ship for the raw materials or recycle it. Cities and commercial buildings are built with shared resources. One possible system is that each home unit comes with an inventory of the amount of resources placed in the city. These home units and be traded. For example, in city A the city was built with 20% of the resources in the limit and city B is 15%. It allows for cities to be diverse and can even be 0%. Cities can trade raw materials to ensure people can acquire their limits. City A has an iron mine and city B has an aluminum mine. All manufacturing is done within the city so that only raw materials are transferred. Products are only generated within the city to guarantee recycling capabilities, if the city can make it then the city can unmake it. The only exception would be shared products like the rocket for space mining. This system does not need money since it is resource and labor based. The long term benefit of this system is that it seamlessly integrates mechanized labor. As technology gets more advanced and labor becomes more mechanized, people are loosing their jobs or pay. As a city becomes more mechanized the only consequence is that less work needs to be done, since the labor is not exchanged for money. The carpenter works for the blacksmith and vise versa. If the people choose to pool their resources to work mechanization then work can be completely automated. The key point in this system is that theft becomes pointless since there is no material superiority. Gynocentrism and hypergamy will not be able to function in this system.

 

If you find this to be a great idea then I will continue using it in my project.

[John DoeParticipant]

FrankOne wrote:

The Bible references 200 million in Revelations

I would have to disagree with your point as Revelations was  written around the end of the 1st century during the time of an advance civilization(s), I am talking about old testament books.  Most scholars believe it was written in Greek originally.

Also we are talking about words, not numbers.  Even Latin or greek does not completely translate to words of today.  Words represent the cultures they come from, however there are some universal constants that are present in all languages.

FrankOne wrote:

A few simple ones might be the ratio of the Sun’s mass to the Earth’s, the age of the Universe, the speed of light. Even getting a few things right in Cosmology;

And why would it need this?  Since when has this knowledge stopped war famine or disease?  How has this knowledge brought peace between peoples?  A better question would be how would this help the common man, as many cultures thrived and prospered without it.  How does it define man’s identity?  You should get my point by now.

FrankOne wrote:

If you have studied Astronomy at even a cursory level you’ll be familiar with the persecution of Gaileleo for positing Heliocentrism.

I covered this on a separate thread.  Heliocentrism was not a popular stance amongst both religious and irreligious of the time.  Aristotle refuted heliocentricity a long time prior.  (along with many other philosophers and secular scientists.)  Also Galileo could not provide enough evidence, at the time of shifts in orbit.  He got in trouble when he abandoned it as theory and promoted it as truth, even though he had no evidence at the time.  Even if his position was proven true, it proved no issue for Catholic Theologians (Augustine for example) who remarked that God did not send wisdom to teach us about the course of the sun and the moon.  Also Galileo wanted to move the debate into a theological debate when personal interpretation of scripture was not allowed.  He pushed it up against the pope.  It was turned down.  His argument was based on a literalist interpretation of the bible, when most understandings were from a phenomenological interpretion (language of appearances).  He kept pushing that the bible had to be interpreted literally only.  He met with the pope again and the pope permitted him to write an argument on it, both for and against it.  He was not permitted to advocate it, only present arguments both for and against it.  He wrote the argument in the form of a story and he mocked the pope who permitted him to write it.  He also attacked one of the Jesuit astronomers (verbally) and alienated the Jesuits.   After this he was put on trial.

Galileo was put under house arrest (given every convenience of the time including a servant) and later recanted his viewpoint.  Several anti-Catholic scholars were surprised at how well he was treated.  This was during a time of persecution of witches by protestants and many people were surprised by the Catholic churches treatment of Gallileo.  The Church ended up apologizing a long time later and produced several stamps as signs of this.  The pope never issued an infallible statement in regards to Galileo prior, during, or after this incident.   Some view this as evidence of the pope being fallible but this is not the case.  The pope’s infallibility is applied:

(1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy

FrankOne wrote:

You wrote that the rotational speed of the Earth somehow relates to the duration of a year. This is false as discussed previously.

I am still not,  if the days were shorter or longer and the years maintained the same number of days, the year would be shorter or longer (not in days) but actual time as it was dependent on days.

FrankOne wrote:

Carbon dating has a wider error margin than other radioisotopic dating methods.

If I am correct you were arguing for carbon dating then switch it to radioisotopic dating.  Regardless it makes assumptions as to the
stucture of rocks when the were first created, cannot consider contamination, and also assumes the decay rate is the
same.  In regards to the last point, Uranium deposits were found in New Mexico and was dated to be 1.5 billion years old.
However, the decay rate also produce Helium but only 6,000 years worth if measured by its current rate.

FrankOne wrote:

If you have studied the fossil record you will be familiar with the homo group, australopitehcus group, paranthropus group — these groups then have species within them. If you go to a site like Smithsonian you can simply look at the photographs of the fossil casts to see these are different species.

One of them was a sandal print……..

FrankOne wrote:

Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Prophecy, if I remember correctly.  One cannot argue about what has not happened yet.

FrankOne wrote:

Thus far I’m not even seeing basics like believers being able to drink poison as stated in the Bible.

You bring this point up, show the verse.  If you are going back to the handling of “scorpions and snakes” part of this
has to do with the demonology of the time, as demons during exoricism were classified as having certain qualities etc.
Satan was equated to “devouring lion”, etc.

FrankOne wrote:

Longevity myths are historical across many faiths, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_myths%5B/quote%5D

My point exactly, and so are flood myths.  And evidence of a Great flood is popping up more and more.

[quote=43280]It depends upon values. So, yes, my morality is subjective.

Not if the values are the same though.  One cannot value “life” and have two seperate moralities.

FrankOne wrote:

One of my core values is peacable coexistence with others, where they are afforded the same rights to freedom as I have — and thus, I am going to deem killing slaves, for instance, as immoral.

And what is that “peace” exactly?  And what rights are those too?  Also the church does not condone slavery as something
that “should be in existence” but rather acknowledges as a necessary evil.  In regards to slavery, most athiest governments
are for it in the form of labor and debtor camps.  The slaves of ancient Judaism were not viewed as slaves as you think
of today and had more rights.  Don’t believe me go look it up.

Also you deem the killing of slaves immoral.  Here is a reality check: on what authority do you says these things, who is
going to listen to you and why should they listen to you?  You say slavery is wrong, however you acknowledge it as a
neccessary evil (along with most americans) in their private purchases.

Also you deem the killing of slaves immoral.  Here is a reality check on what authority do you says these things, who is
going to listen to you and why should they listen to you.  You say slavery is wrong, however you acknowledge it as a
neccessary evil (along with most americans) in their private purchases.  At the end of the day you can’t back up your
“morality” in any way what so ever.  And even if you are immoral what consequences are there?  After all we are just
animals created from particles.  If anything value has to be a logical or mathematical formula subject to the laws
of physics/chemistry/mathematics/etc.  However, you say value cannot be objective.  But why can’t it be when we are
defined by objective laws?

FrankOne wrote:

For instance, I’ve known literalists who were ABSOLUTELY against usury or interest and stated, that it was immoral. I would say that is a fringe view among Christians, but it certainly exists. That is one example of many. Or American Catholics who use birth control and see nothing wrong with it despite Church teachings against it.

First you are arguing for literalists, where if I have not stated before I will state again, the literalist interpretation
was not strongly recommended or practiced even in the early church (before “science”).  The texts are so multidimensional that not only
is literalism wrong but it also limits the texts.  Your second example is one of immorality and is beside the point.

FrankOne wrote:

I would argue your morality is at least somewhat your creation; you decide what Holy Book will form the basis of your beliefs. And you elect to follow certain precepts and not others (you’ve said as much) — there is definitely subjectivity in how to interpret Biblical morality.

The scripture is “not for personal interpretation”, it clearly says this in the scriptures..  Also I may chose a morality, but that does not make the morality subjective.  I may choose a set of rules, but I cannot choose the rules themselves.  You are starting to lose your
“logical edge”, if you have one.  You better start pulling it together.

FrankOne wrote:

I readily concede, my declaration of something as ‘immoral’ is subjective; but I disagree that it is ‘hypocritical’, unless it disagrees with my belief system.

It does disagree with your belief system as you said all morality is subjective.  However you are making a concrete
moral statement.  So you are lying in effect, if only to yourself.  So, yes you are a hypocrite (but don’t take this
as a “f~~~ you I am right you are wrong” because we are all hypocrites in some sense of the word.).

FrankOne wrote:

There are numerous cultures with mythologies including dragons, Chimeras, and other creatures that don’t exist. One only need look at Greek vases or ancient mosaics

Some of these were of Stegosaurus’s and Diplotacus’s (I used to study dinosaurs as a kid).  These were not “made up”.

FrankOne wrote:

I’m hardly seeing religion as some fount of morality, nor is non-belief some fount of morality, either, as a lot of skeptics seem to want to claim.

Don’t take this as “me being a dick” but that leaves you as the only “fountain” of morality left.

FrankOne wrote:

I’ll just say I disagree about gentiles coming into Christianity; there was significant debate about whether they had to become fully observant Jews, be circumcised, etc in the nascent Church.

Actually some of this was covered with the “Jesus meets the Samaritan woman”.  Samaritans were very loose followers of
Judaic law, and if I understand correctly ignored many parts of it.  How is this different than a gentile?  Also
Jesus demanded that the Gentiles be preached too after his resurrection.  So although the 50A.D. council might have
come to terms with the truth, it did not outright create it.

FrankOne wrote:

My point was, the marketplace has determined GMO’s benefits exceed its costs, and that is why the adoption curves quickly go to nearly 100% in about 20 years. The marketplace may not make the best decisions for our health; rather it represents aggregate individual decisions to plant seed that gives the highest yield and thus revenue, per acre. As I said, there may be unanticipated consequences, like much technology. Is the automobile good or bad for us? Well, it encourages a sedentary lifestyle where I’m isolated in my car during a long commute, instead of living close and walking to where I need to go (I live in the ‘burbs), causes us to live further from where we work and waste resources and it creates pollution… And I may not even know the names of the closest neighbors to me… But it also gets me to where I need to go quickly… In general, higher yields mean lower cost for food and less starvation;

I agree, however there is and will be starvation.  GMOs have done far from solve the problem, and because they are
replacing natural foods, in many respects they are making the problem worse as all the food is now fundamentally
becoming poisonous.

FrankOne wrote:

The church building was destroyed; only the house survived. I would argue mircales are more faith-promoting stories.

http://www.miraclesofthechurch.com/

http://www.viralnova.com/modern-miracles/

http://listverse.com/2008/07/14/top-10-astonishing-miracles/

FrankOne wrote:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” — a good statement about many Churches AND judgmental Christians. And there are certainly Christians that don’t join a Church because they don’t like any of the denominations and the focus of their missions. And some who just want to sleep in on Sundays!

I agree, and actually held this view for a long time.  And in some respects and personally guilty of this.

FrankOne wrote:

I wasn’t familiar with this, but I have read about it & I still argue that atheism doesn’t contain any morals or guidance in and of itself.

People naturally believe, it just happens.  To rule out faith in a Diety/dieties is just to have faith in something else
and promotes idolotry (raising something or someone up past its place.

I am running out of time, due to my work schedule.  With one final note, as a skeptic myself at times (in all facets of
life) one cannot limit oneself to skepticism otherwise they would not be skeptical of skepticism itself.  Skepticism
has its place, it just cannot be applied universally without being self defeating.

Ironically I came to terms with Faith itself through cynism.  But that is another story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BrainPilotParticipant]

I’ve written about it in other posts, so my apologies to those who’ve already read this. I was probably no better than average looks in high school and college, and had no ‘game’ or money to compensate. Between high school and the end of residency training about 14 years later, I got friend zoned about a half dozen times by girls I really did care about, and had my head scrambled up pretty hard by it. They weren’t rude about it, but stayed just out of my reach… As I got further along in training, and the hours and academic load got more intense, I gave up even trying to have a social life and lost contact with them.

Fast forward 12 years. I’m about 30 years old (and they are hitting the wall as their carousel ride ends). Training is ending. Private practice, the title and (finally) some money are on the near horizon. One by one, each of the six of them just sort of popped up out of the blue… having magically discovered a newfound attraction to me that they’d somehow never known they’d had. The first time it happened, I’d already been told of the possibility of it, so was not really surprised. But when all 6 of them did it, it became like a cheap side show at a carnival. Each of them thought that they were the only one who had this plan…keep me on ice in the friend zone until I got to a position to produce, then reel me in.

By the end of this procession, it had gone from comical and amusing to just sad and pathetic. In response to their offers, I said that over the years, we’d both had numerous romantic relationships come and go, but we’d stayed friends… and our friendship had become so valuable to me that I didn’t want to take the risk of trying to take it to the next level (one of them actually used that phrase) and then losing the friendship over it if it didn’t work out. I basically freind-zoned them back.

Of course, this was disingenuous bulls~~~, and a little tough for me to keep a straight face at times. But it was no more disingenuous than the bulls~~~tery they were serving up to me…

Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you